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lovesrain44) wrote2008-10-29 03:02 pm
lovesrain44) wrote2008-10-29 03:02 pm
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The last one made me giggle too - that's what too much caffine too late in the day will do!
Your logic is stirling here. I know I tend to agree with everyone's theory, but my only goal here was to GET theories! I know I like my own personal theory best, and fanfic is full of different ideas, but I wanted to hear people talk...and you're talking! So thank you.
I like the whole "we'll never speak of it" or the "it happened cause we were drunk, but..." and then they can't stop thinking about it, and will act on it again. On again off again until after Stanford, too, I like it. "No, Sammy, that was then, this is now...oh, okay, c'mere..." Poor Dean. He just can't say no and then the guilt would eat him up and bam! Angst. Yeah. Bring it.
Your logic is stirling here. I know I tend to agree with everyone's theory, but my only goal here was to GET theories! I know I like my own personal theory best, and fanfic is full of different ideas, but I wanted to hear people talk...and you're talking! So thank you.
I like the whole "we'll never speak of it" or the "it happened cause we were drunk, but..." and then they can't stop thinking about it, and will act on it again. On again off again until after Stanford, too, I like it. "No, Sammy, that was then, this is now...oh, okay, c'mere..." Poor Dean. He just can't say no and then the guilt would eat him up and bam! Angst. Yeah. Bring it.
You mess with me you better bring story links! : D
Where are the links, eh?
I'll get writing if YOU get writing! I've not nearly enough time to read AND write, I'm not sure how fandom produces so much and still pays the bills. I'm always tempted to start a rec list of my faves, but there's so many good rec lists out there, maybe I should just start a rec list of rec lists?
My first Wincest story that I remember was a Killabeez story where Sam and Dean are drinking by a motel pool, a skuzzy one, and then the drink turns to, um, wincest....I was blown away. Let me find you the link...
Where are the links, eh?
I'll get writing if YOU get writing! I've not nearly enough time to read AND write, I'm not sure how fandom produces so much and still pays the bills. I'm always tempted to start a rec list of my faves, but there's so many good rec lists out there, maybe I should just start a rec list of rec lists?
My first Wincest story that I remember was a Killabeez story where Sam and Dean are drinking by a motel pool, a skuzzy one, and then the drink turns to, um, wincest....I was blown away. Let me find you the link...
Oh, baby. BABY. *smiles back at you*
Over 1,000 words? Really. You need to be more communicative...try to open up a little bit here.
And please, YES, post a link here! Let me know. I don't get out often enough....
Over 1,000 words? Really. You need to be more communicative...try to open up a little bit here.
And please, YES, post a link here! Let me know. I don't get out often enough....
Please do! And if you could, let me know, I get so horribly behind on my flist, but would love to read your story.
I think we’re both in the minority, but it’s nice to know I’ve got friends out here! And yeah, I was thinking that there were different kinds of wincest. If Dean could fool around with Sam underage, it wouldn’t have quite the emotional weight that it would in later years. Kids fool around, they just do. Brothers, I hear, fool around a lot, so, yeah, there would be that. But for the boys to stop and think and decide yes or no to more Wincest is a different kind of act. To participate in Wincest with purpose, knowing full and well how it might look and what it means.
(Just to disagree with you here, I do think that underage Dean would have allowed it, but as he got older he would have allowed it less and less as he grew to understand what they were doing. Which then would have brought discord between the brothers, esp if Sam wanted it to continue. At the very least, they would have had some strife to deal with. I read a brilliant WIP that dealt with this very issue, Dean letting the sex happen, but refusing to take it all the way, I think that might have influenced me.)
But as for it really meaning something? I’m with you. Season 1 was still full of them getting to know each other, trying to fit back into their own roles, one which Sam had almost totally outgrown, that of the little brother. Plus I always got the feeling they had their hands full with that, partly because, from what canon seems to indicate, that they’d never actually been alone on a hunt before that. Certainly Sam was surprised to find out that Dad had let Dean go hunting by himself. Even if they’d had underage sex, at that point, they’re a bit busy and all focused on finding Dad. No time to get emotionally involved – or at least more emotionally involved than they already are and in a way that would lead to grownup Wincest.
Angry sex after John died? I like that! I tend to soften anger and turn it another way, but I can totally see Dean being so angry and turning to take it out on Sam and having THAT turn into something else. Angry sex. With biting and bruises and stuff. Mmmmmmmmmmm.
And you’re welcome for the polls. I have stuff I should be doing, but a co worker brought me a pepsi, so, I’m hopped on caffine again today. : D
(Just to disagree with you here, I do think that underage Dean would have allowed it, but as he got older he would have allowed it less and less as he grew to understand what they were doing. Which then would have brought discord between the brothers, esp if Sam wanted it to continue. At the very least, they would have had some strife to deal with. I read a brilliant WIP that dealt with this very issue, Dean letting the sex happen, but refusing to take it all the way, I think that might have influenced me.)
But as for it really meaning something? I’m with you. Season 1 was still full of them getting to know each other, trying to fit back into their own roles, one which Sam had almost totally outgrown, that of the little brother. Plus I always got the feeling they had their hands full with that, partly because, from what canon seems to indicate, that they’d never actually been alone on a hunt before that. Certainly Sam was surprised to find out that Dad had let Dean go hunting by himself. Even if they’d had underage sex, at that point, they’re a bit busy and all focused on finding Dad. No time to get emotionally involved – or at least more emotionally involved than they already are and in a way that would lead to grownup Wincest.
Angry sex after John died? I like that! I tend to soften anger and turn it another way, but I can totally see Dean being so angry and turning to take it out on Sam and having THAT turn into something else. Angry sex. With biting and bruises and stuff. Mmmmmmmmmmm.
And you’re welcome for the polls. I have stuff I should be doing, but a co worker brought me a pepsi, so, I’m hopped on caffine again today. : D
Re canon messing with wincest vibes.....what about some angry off-screen sex? The kind that they're not talking about, are never going to talk about, and that Sam cries through? Cause as we all know, Sam Winchester cries his way through sex..."
You’re welcome for the thinky! I’m just glad to get some discussion going – fanfic is fine, but I want to see the thoughts behind it. I really appreciate everyone’s participation.
You’ve got such a nice orderly mind to think this through this way, I like the way you think. Because, yeah, season one and everyone’s on the wincest train, because it’s easy and fun and that’s what slashers do. It’s almost a habit with fans these days to slash ALL shows regardless of the logic or sensibility of it. It’s almost like we can’t help ourselves. So maybe some fans who decided early on (earlier than me) to slash the boys pre-series enjoy that idea so much, which is fine, that any alternative just doesn’t matter to them. And, truth be told, the pre series is hot, much hotter than it ought to be!
But your ideas here make SO much sense to me. Esp because I’m thinking about all of this and creating a poll because I want to, in my head, lay it out like it was a story. IF and WHEN wincest happened, how would it have gone down? To think about it like this, like a dramatic profile, to imagine the up and down drama, the build up, like you say, now THAT’s a fanfic I’d like to read. I’m all for them hopping into bed, right, but I like a little foreplay. : D
You’ve got such a nice orderly mind to think this through this way, I like the way you think. Because, yeah, season one and everyone’s on the wincest train, because it’s easy and fun and that’s what slashers do. It’s almost a habit with fans these days to slash ALL shows regardless of the logic or sensibility of it. It’s almost like we can’t help ourselves. So maybe some fans who decided early on (earlier than me) to slash the boys pre-series enjoy that idea so much, which is fine, that any alternative just doesn’t matter to them. And, truth be told, the pre series is hot, much hotter than it ought to be!
But your ideas here make SO much sense to me. Esp because I’m thinking about all of this and creating a poll because I want to, in my head, lay it out like it was a story. IF and WHEN wincest happened, how would it have gone down? To think about it like this, like a dramatic profile, to imagine the up and down drama, the build up, like you say, now THAT’s a fanfic I’d like to read. I’m all for them hopping into bed, right, but I like a little foreplay. : D
Aww, you're not alone in having been waiting for ages for this type of discussion! I'm glad you were finally able to find the correct audience! :)
Hahaha! I see I've created a monster...LOL! ;P
Hahaha! I see I've created a monster...LOL! ;P
My post to the new LJ has been approved, so we'll see what traffic that will create.....
Yeah, a monster, who is TOTALLY distracted by your flickering ICON and the lovely poses you are sharing with Himself!
Yeah, a monster, who is TOTALLY distracted by your flickering ICON and the lovely poses you are sharing with Himself!
Hee, I think I just have no life, so I've pondered on this quite a bit over the years as the series has been on, lol.
I totally think it's just habit for fans to slash anyone at any time. I mean, take this whole Dean/Castiel explosion that's been happening this season. The characters, in canon, do not really get along that well and definitely don't trust each other or have any romantic chemistry (so far), but yet from the SECOND he was on screen in the premiere, people have been slashing him w/ Dean all over the place. But...it doesn't really make sense given the ACTUAL canon in the show. I'd say Sam/Dean in season 1 definitely made a LOT more sense at the time (and still do to some extent), but like I said, looking back in retrospect and knowing future events and how they impact the brothers makes it appear just a bit differently. Well, to me, anyway. Lol. :)
Yeah, I agree that you form your thoughts on this based on what you'd like to see written as a story. I think the foreplay or buildup is just as fun as the actual porny moments, cause you get to go inside the boys' heads and experience the struggle and the pain and the guilt and the desperation that leads them to that choice. I mean, I love me some PWPs for the hot porn, but the stories that stick out to me and become my favorites and the ones that are really long and drawn out, and you're allowed to go on that emotional rollercoaster w/ the boys and experience what they have to go through to get to that decision, that moment when they risk everything to be together in that way and have it be more than just sex. It's the best kind of romance, cause they really are all each other has, and I find that incredibly beautiful and heartbreaking to read.
I totally think it's just habit for fans to slash anyone at any time. I mean, take this whole Dean/Castiel explosion that's been happening this season. The characters, in canon, do not really get along that well and definitely don't trust each other or have any romantic chemistry (so far), but yet from the SECOND he was on screen in the premiere, people have been slashing him w/ Dean all over the place. But...it doesn't really make sense given the ACTUAL canon in the show. I'd say Sam/Dean in season 1 definitely made a LOT more sense at the time (and still do to some extent), but like I said, looking back in retrospect and knowing future events and how they impact the brothers makes it appear just a bit differently. Well, to me, anyway. Lol. :)
Yeah, I agree that you form your thoughts on this based on what you'd like to see written as a story. I think the foreplay or buildup is just as fun as the actual porny moments, cause you get to go inside the boys' heads and experience the struggle and the pain and the guilt and the desperation that leads them to that choice. I mean, I love me some PWPs for the hot porn, but the stories that stick out to me and become my favorites and the ones that are really long and drawn out, and you're allowed to go on that emotional rollercoaster w/ the boys and experience what they have to go through to get to that decision, that moment when they risk everything to be together in that way and have it be more than just sex. It's the best kind of romance, cause they really are all each other has, and I find that incredibly beautiful and heartbreaking to read.
Hahahaha, well I'm not much for angry sex myself, but I could TOTALLY see it happening w/ these 2 during this season. I really have no doubt that they'd already done it by now if they were ever going to, so you could totally take Sam's betrayal of Dean's dying wish w/ his powers or the Ruby thing and turn it into hot angry sex. ;)
I have no life either...but I do really. This is my life! : D
I love fandom and fans, but the whole Dean/Castiel pairing is like watching lemmings off a cliff. Especially in light of the fact that in addition to what you're saying (no chemistry, no affection), we've seen a whopping 10 minutes of Cas and we're already at ep 7 tonight. I asked around; people were desperate to be able to slash someone on this show and couldn't, understandably, get behind the wincest. Desperate, I tell you. So I understand that part.
What's come out in fanfic (I've read a few) is doing some interesting things with, given Cas's threats to Dean, the whole dominance/sumbmission issue, or they posit that Cas is going to have s-e-x with Dean to try to relate to him better, to get Dean to trust him, and the writers seem to forget or don't understand that Dean has sex with relative strangers to have sex and not to get closer to them. I could buy the whole D/C pairing if I felt it was being done realistically - I want motivation and reasonable, within-character actions, but what I've been getting so far is a bunch of "...and Dean saw the angel's cock and it was a beautiful thing..." Can't go there. Still waiting. Not getting it.
Of course you know about the Big Bang stories, which address the very issue of the need/desire for longer, more in depth stories about them getting together, right? Those are pretty wonderful, because the writers are good and they take it all so seriously, just the way I like it. I think you think exactly the way I do about this. I'm too serious for my own good, but I want to watch the process of them falling in love and taking that last step towards wincest. This isn't just slash, with two men are having sex, this is incest, fer crying out loud! I don't care who you are, that's a big step to take if you're going to have a relationship - I want angst and I want agony over the thing. And then I want good porny stuff.
I have a rec list, if I've not already given it to you. On my LJ here, *points to the left side of the page* you'll see links and "Amalthia's Rec List of SPN." Abondanza, baby. (Favorite PWP is Plutogirl10's Into the Woods.)
I love fandom and fans, but the whole Dean/Castiel pairing is like watching lemmings off a cliff. Especially in light of the fact that in addition to what you're saying (no chemistry, no affection), we've seen a whopping 10 minutes of Cas and we're already at ep 7 tonight. I asked around; people were desperate to be able to slash someone on this show and couldn't, understandably, get behind the wincest. Desperate, I tell you. So I understand that part.
What's come out in fanfic (I've read a few) is doing some interesting things with, given Cas's threats to Dean, the whole dominance/sumbmission issue, or they posit that Cas is going to have s-e-x with Dean to try to relate to him better, to get Dean to trust him, and the writers seem to forget or don't understand that Dean has sex with relative strangers to have sex and not to get closer to them. I could buy the whole D/C pairing if I felt it was being done realistically - I want motivation and reasonable, within-character actions, but what I've been getting so far is a bunch of "...and Dean saw the angel's cock and it was a beautiful thing..." Can't go there. Still waiting. Not getting it.
Of course you know about the Big Bang stories, which address the very issue of the need/desire for longer, more in depth stories about them getting together, right? Those are pretty wonderful, because the writers are good and they take it all so seriously, just the way I like it. I think you think exactly the way I do about this. I'm too serious for my own good, but I want to watch the process of them falling in love and taking that last step towards wincest. This isn't just slash, with two men are having sex, this is incest, fer crying out loud! I don't care who you are, that's a big step to take if you're going to have a relationship - I want angst and I want agony over the thing. And then I want good porny stuff.
I have a rec list, if I've not already given it to you. On my LJ here, *points to the left side of the page* you'll see links and "Amalthia's Rec List of SPN." Abondanza, baby. (Favorite PWP is Plutogirl10's Into the Woods.)
I think they probably both had feelings for each other when they were younger, though it's sometimes hard to say if those feelings were ever truly realized and accepted or if they were repressed and just not thought about. But I've also read some FANTASTIC and beautiful pre-series fics (in fact, my all-time fave fic is pre-series, and one that I think you recced in the comments of your first post - To Wish Impossible Things), and in a way, I *could* see it happening where Dean allows it but never lets it get to a point where the intimacy is there. I think it would just be about sex to him at that point (even though I think he'd FEEL differently, but wouldn't let Sam get that involved), and at some point he'd end up breaking it off, which would lead Sam to leave for Stanford. I could see that...as far as reading fics goes. But for my own personal fanon beliefs based on the whole series, I'm sticking w/ my post-season 2/season 3, lol. ;)
Dean was SO broken after John died, and he even admitted to Gordon in Bloodlust that he couldn't talk to Sam about it. I think it was pretty obvious that he turned to anger and brutality in hunting for a while there to deal w/ losing John. I mean, he smashed up his BABY cause he was so frustrated and hurt and angry. So that leads me to think that any sex going on at that point would be angry sex. And...that's probably why I wouldn't want to see their "first time" happen in that time frame, cause I'd want their first sexual experience to not be just a physical thing to erase the pain, but more about *them* and about how they need each other and love each other. But then again, I'm a complete romantic like that, so that may skew my bias a bit, lol.
Dean was SO broken after John died, and he even admitted to Gordon in Bloodlust that he couldn't talk to Sam about it. I think it was pretty obvious that he turned to anger and brutality in hunting for a while there to deal w/ losing John. I mean, he smashed up his BABY cause he was so frustrated and hurt and angry. So that leads me to think that any sex going on at that point would be angry sex. And...that's probably why I wouldn't want to see their "first time" happen in that time frame, cause I'd want their first sexual experience to not be just a physical thing to erase the pain, but more about *them* and about how they need each other and love each other. But then again, I'm a complete romantic like that, so that may skew my bias a bit, lol.
Well if angry sex could happen during S2, what about NOW? Oh...I think you just said that! In that one ep where Dean punches Sam twice? Oh, yeah. I totally wish Sam had punched BACK and then that they started rolling on the floor, fighting and biting!
Hahaha, yes fandom is my life, too! My mom would be so proud that I sit around and talk about gay incestuous sex all day long, LOL!
See, the whole Dean/Castiel thing squicks me in the way that the Sam/Ruby thing does (only it's freaking me out that Sam/Ruby might actually BECOME canon, which is my one and only MAJOR issue w/ this season, cause I do not want my Sammy to become a rapist!). But...Castiel is not HUMAN, and I just don't understand why people think that's hot. I mean, Misha Collins is nice to look at, sure, but I dunno, I guess I don't do slash just for the sake of it, but rather cause I see something between two characters that's actually worth exploring. But I just don't see that between those 2 at all. It's not that kind of relationship between them.
Yes, when I want my super fluffy schmoopy fics, I read J2, cause those boys are just so adorable and sweet that it makes your teeth hurt just looking at them, lol. But when I want buckets of angst and drama (and even action/adventure, if it's a case-plot along w/ the porn), I go right to the wincest, lol. And yes, I do know about Big Bang!! I spent MANY MANY hours this summer locked away in my room reading through some of those. So very good. Though so may of them are AUs, and I generally don't read those as much, so I'm always on the lookout for other really good, longer fics that explore the boys a bit before the porning happens, lol.
And oooh, I'll have to check out that rec list! Thanks! :D
See, the whole Dean/Castiel thing squicks me in the way that the Sam/Ruby thing does (only it's freaking me out that Sam/Ruby might actually BECOME canon, which is my one and only MAJOR issue w/ this season, cause I do not want my Sammy to become a rapist!). But...Castiel is not HUMAN, and I just don't understand why people think that's hot. I mean, Misha Collins is nice to look at, sure, but I dunno, I guess I don't do slash just for the sake of it, but rather cause I see something between two characters that's actually worth exploring. But I just don't see that between those 2 at all. It's not that kind of relationship between them.
Yes, when I want my super fluffy schmoopy fics, I read J2, cause those boys are just so adorable and sweet that it makes your teeth hurt just looking at them, lol. But when I want buckets of angst and drama (and even action/adventure, if it's a case-plot along w/ the porn), I go right to the wincest, lol. And yes, I do know about Big Bang!! I spent MANY MANY hours this summer locked away in my room reading through some of those. So very good. Though so may of them are AUs, and I generally don't read those as much, so I'm always on the lookout for other really good, longer fics that explore the boys a bit before the porning happens, lol.
And oooh, I'll have to check out that rec list! Thanks! :D
Awesome! I'm totally stalking this post so I can see all the other amazing comments you get on this topic. ;)
Hahaha, I need to have someone make me a new one of the pics I just got w/ him in September. He's amazing!!
Also, you totally beat me to friending you! I was totally gonna ask to be friends, too! Heee!! Added you back! :D
Hahaha, I need to have someone make me a new one of the pics I just got w/ him in September. He's amazing!!
Also, you totally beat me to friending you! I was totally gonna ask to be friends, too! Heee!! Added you back! :D
HAHAHAHAHA, yes exactly!! Even though it's not my thing, there are TONS of opportunities for those 2 to have angry sex, for so many reasons. I mean, as close as they are, they often don't agree on things, and are quite often ready to punch the other (though it's been mostly Dean doing that in canon). So yeah...totally could see angry sex here, and yes, in season 2 also. ;)
He really is amazing. I've only met him once, but was totally blown away by his kindness and his good nature and that lovely gaze. Such a big heart on that one. : D
Or makeup sex after an angry fight.....
I'm squicked like you are. I can't see Ruby/Sam and I don't think Ruby/Sam will become canon. The statement Padalecki made was just him talking to a reporter, giving them something, anything to make them go away. IMO.
You're welcome for the rec list! That should keep you out of trouble for a while....
You're welcome for the rec list! That should keep you out of trouble for a while....
Oh yes, definitely a huge heart. And he goes so far above and beyond for his fans, and you can tell he's truly, genuinely touched by and appreciative of us. I really admire him, cause he doesn't have to do half the stuff he does for us, but he does it anyway, and he always makes us feel like the most important people in the world.
Yeah, I really hope Jared was just kinda running his mouth to keep the reporters at bay, cause I'd be very upset if Sam/Ruby became canon.
Lol, well I hope it keeps me busy for a while, cause I seem to keep getting into trouble when I open my mouth in my LJ. Time to jump head-first into a pile of juicy fic, lol.
Lol, well I hope it keeps me busy for a while, cause I seem to keep getting into trouble when I open my mouth in my LJ. Time to jump head-first into a pile of juicy fic, lol.
That's always what I hear about him. Always. He must have an off day every now and then, a bad morning when the coffee is burnt, he must SNAP in irritation at someone, sometime....but you never get that in his interviews, his meet ups with fans. He's always professional, always attentive. And I kind of get that he rather enjoys it, not just because of the fame part of it, I never get that he's getting a swelled head from all the attention, but that, instead, he GENUINELY enjoys meeting all these fun people who've come to see him. You can't fake a smile like he's got, all the smiles are different, and they look and feel real. REAL.
I'm sure he was, I'm almost positive. Or maybe Kripke told him to say it to stir things up, who knows. : D
Getting into trouble, eh? Well...if you're keen on some dark angst, I'll self pimp myself...click on the big bang link there *points to the left again* and, I'm told, you will need kleenex.
Getting into trouble, eh? Well...if you're keen on some dark angst, I'll self pimp myself...click on the big bang link there *points to the left again* and, I'm told, you will need kleenex.
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