Wincest "Pinpoint the Moment" Poll

[lovesrain44]

[Poll #1287501]

Comments

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Oh please....tell me why? When? How?

[erda-3.livejournal.com]

I can't vote because there's no box that says 'all of the above.'

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Sorry about that, but I'm trying to pinpoint the moment!

[lfg1986.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, see I don't think I can vote in this one at all, cause like I put in my other comments to your first post, I think it happened much later. But of course, this is just my opinion, and clearly, based on your poll results, I'm in the minority. But that's ok. Like you said, there's no right or wrong, just how each individual person interprets things. I guess the main reason I can't see it happening pre-series is that Dean would probably not let it get that far. I take Wincest to mean a lot of things in different contexts, but from your first poll (and the from your explanation just now), I gathered that you meant full-on sex in a way that wasn't just for physical pleasure. I don't think Dean would ever allow that when Sam was so much younger than him and also very confused and still very much fighting the life they lived. Like I said before, I do believe the feelings may have been always there (either realized or repressed), but they would never act on it until later. And the reason I don't really see it happening in season 1 at all is because the boys were still so disconnected from each other. They had to relearn how to be w/ each other and how to rely on and trust each other, and I don't think that there'd be any sex and/or intimacy until later. The journey and anticipation of becoming that intimate is half the fun, ya know. ;) I *could* see it happening in season 2, but I honestly think it would be later than what you think. Mostly just cause Dean was SO distant from Sam and wouldn't even really talk to him about John right after he died. I do agree that John's death was a turning point for them and definitely a catalyst, but I think, if it happened then, it was more just angry sex and wanting to numb the pain than it would've been about the two of them coming together in actual love or intimacy. I think realistically, given the canon of the show, it could happen at any time from mid-season 2 onwards, but like I said before, I'd go for right after season 2 - into season 3, where they've both lost so much and are so desperate and needy for each other that it's inevitable. But again...just my thoughts.

So um...I would most likely go for the last option, except I think it's awesome that you're doing these polls and opening up such interesting debates, so I wouldn't want you to stop! Thanks for making me be somewhat thinky today! :D

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

I can totally see this and agree with you, especially about the distance between them in season 1, beginning of season 2. Your argument is well thought-out and reasoned, however I am reading it with my hands over my ears and going "la la la" because I am committed to the idea of underage pre-series. We're picking out china patterns.

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

I think we’re both in the minority, but it’s nice to know I’ve got friends out here! And yeah, I was thinking that there were different kinds of wincest. If Dean could fool around with Sam underage, it wouldn’t have quite the emotional weight that it would in later years. Kids fool around, they just do. Brothers, I hear, fool around a lot, so, yeah, there would be that. But for the boys to stop and think and decide yes or no to more Wincest is a different kind of act. To participate in Wincest with purpose, knowing full and well how it might look and what it means.

(Just to disagree with you here, I do think that underage Dean would have allowed it, but as he got older he would have allowed it less and less as he grew to understand what they were doing. Which then would have brought discord between the brothers, esp if Sam wanted it to continue. At the very least, they would have had some strife to deal with. I read a brilliant WIP that dealt with this very issue, Dean letting the sex happen, but refusing to take it all the way, I think that might have influenced me.)

But as for it really meaning something? I’m with you. Season 1 was still full of them getting to know each other, trying to fit back into their own roles, one which Sam had almost totally outgrown, that of the little brother. Plus I always got the feeling they had their hands full with that, partly because, from what canon seems to indicate, that they’d never actually been alone on a hunt before that. Certainly Sam was surprised to find out that Dad had let Dean go hunting by himself. Even if they’d had underage sex, at that point, they’re a bit busy and all focused on finding Dad. No time to get emotionally involved – or at least more emotionally involved than they already are and in a way that would lead to grownup Wincest.

Angry sex after John died? I like that! I tend to soften anger and turn it another way, but I can totally see Dean being so angry and turning to take it out on Sam and having THAT turn into something else. Angry sex. With biting and bruises and stuff. Mmmmmmmmmmm.

And you’re welcome for the polls. I have stuff I should be doing, but a co worker brought me a pepsi, so, I’m hopped on caffine again today. : D

[emrldwaters.livejournal.com]

So my thinking is it happened before Sam went to college. My thoughts on it are based off of Sam's disconnection to the family after he left, and how well Sam and Dean know each other.

I have siblings, we are not anywhere near that close. Sam and Dean connect at a different level. Also it's common for gay/bi/str8 boys to reject their first experimental experiences and try to run away or hide from it. The story defines it as being Sam not wanting to live the life of the hunter, but I think the wincest is what's underlying. And maybe Sam starts opening up more as he begins to accept their secret, and instead of focusing on what happened, sees the friendship potential. . . . ONLY for things to get awkward again when they try to take it back to the sexual. Secrets, lies, and sleeping with demons to flush the naughty naughty thoughts out? I dunno. Just one boys opinion.

[phanie28.livejournal.com]

I actually would picture it happening during season one, right after the Bugs episode where everybody thinks they are gay and that at one point, Dean calls Sam, Honey and slaps his butt. Then Sam would admit that he liked it and things would unfold from there. Hum, yeah that would make sense right? :P

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

It could totally make sense! I've long liked Bugs for the very Wincesty undertones you mention. It might start as a joke, right? And then it would get more serious from there...

[shampoo.livejournal.com]

i just put the last one 'cause it made me giggle. but i think what happened is a lot of accidental 'we never speak of this again' type stuff pre-series, maybe something big before sam left for stanford and then full-out, more than every week kind of stuff started happening sometime late during season one.

dean just gives me a big denial vibe that makes me think that their neediness and love for each other would've made stuff happen pretty early on, but nothing dean would let either of them acknowledge as anything more than a stupid/drunk/etc. mistake.

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

The last one made me giggle too - that's what too much caffine too late in the day will do!

Your logic is stirling here. I know I tend to agree with everyone's theory, but my only goal here was to GET theories! I know I like my own personal theory best, and fanfic is full of different ideas, but I wanted to hear people talk...and you're talking! So thank you.

I like the whole "we'll never speak of it" or the "it happened cause we were drunk, but..." and then they can't stop thinking about it, and will act on it again. On again off again until after Stanford, too, I like it. "No, Sammy, that was then, this is now...oh, okay, c'mere..." Poor Dean. He just can't say no and then the guilt would eat him up and bam! Angst. Yeah. Bring it.

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

I voted underage again to skew your results and because I'm stubborn like that.

I really like the reasoning of lfg1986 above, it makes perfect sense, but I will turn a blind eye to it because I MUST HAVE MY UNDERAGE WINCEST.

Also, I would like to vote for #4 above, to shoo you off to write, except this part is so much *fun*! Also, now you have links to read, missy. (Assuming there's anything there you haven't seen.) But then after that, yeah, get writing. Chop, chop.

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

You mess with me you better bring story links! : D
Where are the links, eh?

I'll get writing if YOU get writing! I've not nearly enough time to read AND write, I'm not sure how fandom produces so much and still pays the bills. I'm always tempted to start a rec list of my faves, but there's so many good rec lists out there, maybe I should just start a rec list of rec lists?

My first Wincest story that I remember was a Killabeez story where Sam and Dean are drinking by a motel pool, a skuzzy one, and then the drink turns to, um, wincest....I was blown away. Let me find you the link...

[9thof9.livejournal.com]

I answered the last poll but didn't make a comment.

Since you demanded asked for one, I tried to spell out just how I see it in my little world. When that went over 1,000 words I decided not to post it here but write a fic instead.

*glares at you*

Once it's written (hopefully in a day or two), I'll come and post a link to it on my journal.

*stomps away to write fic*

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Oh, baby. BABY. *smiles back at you*

Over 1,000 words? Really. You need to be more communicative...try to open up a little bit here.

And please, YES, post a link here! Let me know. I don't get out often enough....

How Wincest started in my little world.

[9thof9.livejournal.com]

Here's the fic. (http://9thof9.livejournal.com/17459.html) Enjoy.

[lfg1986.livejournal.com]

Hey, I also just wanted to add this (would edit my other comment, but it's been replied to, so I can't) :

If you would have asked this back when season 1 was going on (or right after season 1, which is when I jumped on the wincest train), I probably would have totally gone along w/ it happening for the first time in season 1 or possibly even pre-series. As I watch each episode, even now, a good way into season 4, I could potentially make a case for it happening after/during almost each one, lol (especially during season 3, when so many of the episodes ended w/ the brothers having a nice moment together). But I think that having seen the last 3+ years unfold and having a retrospective view now has made me see it a little differently. Back in season 1, we had no idea that John was going to die, or that SAM was going to die or Dean would sell his soul to bring him back, or any other of the tragic events they've dealt w/ so far in the series. So I think it was just easy to hook them up in fics and our minds at that point cause we *could*, and cause we're all a litle pervy, lol. ;) But I think, looking back over 3+ seasons of events, knowing everything we know now, and seeing all the possible times for them to take that next step, it makes you really think harder about at just what point they were pushed into taking that step and being so intimately connected to each other. I guess I just find it more interesting if it was later on, cause it leaves so much room for the build-up and the tragedy and desperation to get to them so that they HAVE to take that step, to rely completely on one another in every way. I feel that the only way they find peace is w/ each other.

Umm yeah, I really need a life, cause I'm getting WAY too into this, haha!

Oh, and I also wanted to mention that I just saw a new wincest discussion comm called angstybromance, and I thought maybe you'd wanna check it out and maybe even post this poll over there so there can be even more awesome theories and debating going on. :)

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

You’re welcome for the thinky! I’m just glad to get some discussion going – fanfic is fine, but I want to see the thoughts behind it. I really appreciate everyone’s participation.

You’ve got such a nice orderly mind to think this through this way, I like the way you think. Because, yeah, season one and everyone’s on the wincest train, because it’s easy and fun and that’s what slashers do. It’s almost a habit with fans these days to slash ALL shows regardless of the logic or sensibility of it. It’s almost like we can’t help ourselves. So maybe some fans who decided early on (earlier than me) to slash the boys pre-series enjoy that idea so much, which is fine, that any alternative just doesn’t matter to them. And, truth be told, the pre series is hot, much hotter than it ought to be!

But your ideas here make SO much sense to me. Esp because I’m thinking about all of this and creating a poll because I want to, in my head, lay it out like it was a story. IF and WHEN wincest happened, how would it have gone down? To think about it like this, like a dramatic profile, to imagine the up and down drama, the build up, like you say, now THAT’s a fanfic I’d like to read. I’m all for them hopping into bed, right, but I like a little foreplay. : D

[keks80.livejournal.com]

OK, I really can't vote on this poll. I stick to my theory that it happened after ELAC, I'm stubborn like that. Also, rosepetal-drenched continuum? Bwahahaha!

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I was hopped up on caffine when I wrote that....

[lori-leaf.livejournal.com]

I think that the boys had unresolved sexual tension preseries (hence my pre series vote), but they didn't really ACT on it until after John died.

However in my mind, looking at your brother and desperately wanting to kiss him, is still Wincest.

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

This is a perfect answer, and could explain a lot, because if Sammy was looking and Dean was looking and it was UNREQUITED, then we got some major URST going on, which, then, explodes (heh heh) when John dies. I like this theory. A lot.

[iwrotethissong.livejournal.com]

You didn't give an option for S2?

x helen

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Good question...it's because when I did my first poll on this issue, the Wincest "When" Poll
http://lovesrain44.livejournal.com/22898.html

...most of the votes came into a very narrow band of time. I had me some thinky thoughts about this
http://lovesrain44.livejournal.com/22898.html

and then came up with a "Pinpoint the Moment" Poll to try and narrow it down a bit. I was surprised, you see, that most people thought it happened pre series the first time. : D

[vampyreranger.livejournal.com]

I can't vote because for me it was LATE season three.

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

That opinion is entirely valid, actually. When I made the poll originally, it was at the beginning of Season 3, so I didn't include it at that point.

So when in S3 did you think it happened, and what brought it about? I'm still very interested. : D