Hmmm, see I don't think I can vote in this one at all, cause like I put in my other comments to your first post, I think it happened much later. But of course, this is just my opinion, and clearly, based on your poll results, I'm in the minority. But that's ok. Like you said, there's no right or wrong, just how each individual person interprets things. I guess the main reason I can't see it happening pre-series is that Dean would probably not let it get that far. I take Wincest to mean a lot of things in different contexts, but from your first poll (and the from your explanation just now), I gathered that you meant full-on sex in a way that wasn't just for physical pleasure. I don't think Dean would ever allow that when Sam was so much younger than him and also very confused and still very much fighting the life they lived. Like I said before, I do believe the feelings may have been always there (either realized or repressed), but they would never act on it until later. And the reason I don't really see it happening in season 1 at all is because the boys were still so disconnected from each other. They had to relearn how to be w/ each other and how to rely on and trust each other, and I don't think that there'd be any sex and/or intimacy until later. The journey and anticipation of becoming that intimate is half the fun, ya know. ;) I *could* see it happening in season 2, but I honestly think it would be later than what you think. Mostly just cause Dean was SO distant from Sam and wouldn't even really talk to him about John right after he died. I do agree that John's death was a turning point for them and definitely a catalyst, but I think, if it happened then, it was more just angry sex and wanting to numb the pain than it would've been about the two of them coming together in actual love or intimacy. I think realistically, given the canon of the show, it could happen at any time from mid-season 2 onwards, but like I said before, I'd go for right after season 2 - into season 3, where they've both lost so much and are so desperate and needy for each other that it's inevitable. But again...just my thoughts.
So um...I would most likely go for the last option, except I think it's awesome that you're doing these polls and opening up such interesting debates, so I wouldn't want you to stop! Thanks for making me be somewhat thinky today! :D
I can totally see this and agree with you, especially about the distance between them in season 1, beginning of season 2. Your argument is well thought-out and reasoned, however I am reading it with my hands over my ears and going "la la la" because I am committed to the idea of underage pre-series. We're picking out china patterns.
Ahaha, well that's ok. I actually like to hear other people's thoughts on when/how they think wincest first happened. I'm really glad these polls were made and people are willing to discuss their theories, cause it's always been a topic I've been intrigued by, I've just never found too many people who want to discuss it w/ me. So these posts/polls have been very fun and informative for me. But I'm glad my theory made sense and that you could see it, that's always cool to hear. :)
And as far as fanfic goes, I'll read practically anything set during any period (well, Sam has to at least be 16 for me to not be squicked), but my own personal fanon is what I said above, lol.
Yeah, I'm really enjoying this too, to a distracting degree. (Obviously, since I'm writing *volumes* here :P). But yeah, I can definitely see what you're saying and your fanon makes sense.
Unfortunately for me, I just tend to be *annoyed* by anything that doesn't allow for there to be wincest going on. Boys, stop fighting and being distant! Dean, stop banging girls and pushing Sam to do so! Evil things, leave the boys alone, so they can doooooooo it!!!!
Heh. But that's my illness. I've nicknamed it Denial. ;)
Hahaha, no kidding, my first comment was like novel-length, lol! Clearly I think about this WAY too much, haha! ;)
And I am, too! I've been SO frustrated this season, not w/ the show so much (cause I'm actually LOVING the stories this year), but more w/ the lack of brotherly moments and opportunities to write some awesome wincest! There's been a serious lack of Sam/Dean fics this year cause the canon is fucking up the wincesty vibes. *is annoyed* Lol, clearly we're all insane, but it's so much FUN! :D
Hahaha, yes I did see that! In fact, I just made another comment to this post down below alerting the OP of this so that maybe she can head over there and post this poll/discussion there, too. I'd love to see more theories and discussion on this topic. :)
Thanks to you guys I have a new LJ community! I went over and posted the links to the polls - I'm in the queue for moderation, so I guess we'll soon see if this type of discussion was what they had in mind.
Awesome!! I think this is right up their alley for that comm, and I'm sure you'd also have some really good insights into the other discussions they'll probably have there. :D
And OP means original poster, which is you, since you made these posts and the polls. :)
If I've got good insights, you guys have even more - I've been wanting for ages to have a good discussion like this. In the past when I started, I got my wrists slapped for daring to suggest wincest. I think I was in the wrong community, um. : D
OP? Ohhh, I have a title now! OP! OP! *head swells...*
He really is amazing. I've only met him once, but was totally blown away by his kindness and his good nature and that lovely gaze. Such a big heart on that one. : D
Oh yes, definitely a huge heart. And he goes so far above and beyond for his fans, and you can tell he's truly, genuinely touched by and appreciative of us. I really admire him, cause he doesn't have to do half the stuff he does for us, but he does it anyway, and he always makes us feel like the most important people in the world.
Re canon messing with wincest vibes.....what about some angry off-screen sex? The kind that they're not talking about, are never going to talk about, and that Sam cries through? Cause as we all know, Sam Winchester cries his way through sex..."
Hahahaha, well I'm not much for angry sex myself, but I could TOTALLY see it happening w/ these 2 during this season. I really have no doubt that they'd already done it by now if they were ever going to, so you could totally take Sam's betrayal of Dean's dying wish w/ his powers or the Ruby thing and turn it into hot angry sex. ;)
Well if angry sex could happen during S2, what about NOW? Oh...I think you just said that! In that one ep where Dean punches Sam twice? Oh, yeah. I totally wish Sam had punched BACK and then that they started rolling on the floor, fighting and biting!
HAHAHAHAHA, yes exactly!! Even though it's not my thing, there are TONS of opportunities for those 2 to have angry sex, for so many reasons. I mean, as close as they are, they often don't agree on things, and are quite often ready to punch the other (though it's been mostly Dean doing that in canon). So yeah...totally could see angry sex here, and yes, in season 2 also. ;)
I think we’re both in the minority, but it’s nice to know I’ve got friends out here! And yeah, I was thinking that there were different kinds of wincest. If Dean could fool around with Sam underage, it wouldn’t have quite the emotional weight that it would in later years. Kids fool around, they just do. Brothers, I hear, fool around a lot, so, yeah, there would be that. But for the boys to stop and think and decide yes or no to more Wincest is a different kind of act. To participate in Wincest with purpose, knowing full and well how it might look and what it means.
(Just to disagree with you here, I do think that underage Dean would have allowed it, but as he got older he would have allowed it less and less as he grew to understand what they were doing. Which then would have brought discord between the brothers, esp if Sam wanted it to continue. At the very least, they would have had some strife to deal with. I read a brilliant WIP that dealt with this very issue, Dean letting the sex happen, but refusing to take it all the way, I think that might have influenced me.)
But as for it really meaning something? I’m with you. Season 1 was still full of them getting to know each other, trying to fit back into their own roles, one which Sam had almost totally outgrown, that of the little brother. Plus I always got the feeling they had their hands full with that, partly because, from what canon seems to indicate, that they’d never actually been alone on a hunt before that. Certainly Sam was surprised to find out that Dad had let Dean go hunting by himself. Even if they’d had underage sex, at that point, they’re a bit busy and all focused on finding Dad. No time to get emotionally involved – or at least more emotionally involved than they already are and in a way that would lead to grownup Wincest.
Angry sex after John died? I like that! I tend to soften anger and turn it another way, but I can totally see Dean being so angry and turning to take it out on Sam and having THAT turn into something else. Angry sex. With biting and bruises and stuff. Mmmmmmmmmmm.
And you’re welcome for the polls. I have stuff I should be doing, but a co worker brought me a pepsi, so, I’m hopped on caffine again today. : D
I think they probably both had feelings for each other when they were younger, though it's sometimes hard to say if those feelings were ever truly realized and accepted or if they were repressed and just not thought about. But I've also read some FANTASTIC and beautiful pre-series fics (in fact, my all-time fave fic is pre-series, and one that I think you recced in the comments of your first post - To Wish Impossible Things), and in a way, I *could* see it happening where Dean allows it but never lets it get to a point where the intimacy is there. I think it would just be about sex to him at that point (even though I think he'd FEEL differently, but wouldn't let Sam get that involved), and at some point he'd end up breaking it off, which would lead Sam to leave for Stanford. I could see that...as far as reading fics goes. But for my own personal fanon beliefs based on the whole series, I'm sticking w/ my post-season 2/season 3, lol. ;)
Dean was SO broken after John died, and he even admitted to Gordon in Bloodlust that he couldn't talk to Sam about it. I think it was pretty obvious that he turned to anger and brutality in hunting for a while there to deal w/ losing John. I mean, he smashed up his BABY cause he was so frustrated and hurt and angry. So that leads me to think that any sex going on at that point would be angry sex. And...that's probably why I wouldn't want to see their "first time" happen in that time frame, cause I'd want their first sexual experience to not be just a physical thing to erase the pain, but more about *them* and about how they need each other and love each other. But then again, I'm a complete romantic like that, so that may skew my bias a bit, lol.
Just to disagree with you here, I do think that underage Dean would have allowed it, but as he got older he would have allowed it less and less as he grew to understand what they were doing. Which then would have brought discord between the brothers, esp if Sam wanted it to continue. At the very least, they would have had some strife to deal with.
So much WORD to all of this. I had this discussion in the car with my friend the other day, and I came to just about the same conclusion that you did. Especially if they started with just playing doctor and sparring in the backyard and then a sexual relationship grew out of that, I can totally see Dean growing reluctant as he became more and more aware of societal norms and expectations that maybe weren't as influential on them as socially-isolated children. I can also see Sam, stubborn as he is, not understanding why their relationship would have to change, and his anger over feeling rejected by Dean putting "artificial" limits on their relationship would create a totally new distance between them that could even have contributed in a round-about way to his leaving for Stanford.
Doesn't that sound like a story begging to be written? I know there's a couple like this out there, where they're fooling around and Dean puts the kibosh on it. I'm always open to read more, however. : D Although, I'd never thought, until you brought it up, that Dean's putting the kibosh on the sex was one of the reasons that Sam left. I've read a few stories that have Dean allowing the sex to happen to try to get Sam to stay, but I'm sure it could have gone either way...because regardless, Sammy left. I'm positive he cried as the bus pulled out. : (
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lovesrain44) wrote2008-10-29 03:02 pm
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So um...I would most likely go for the last option, except I think it's awesome that you're doing these polls and opening up such interesting debates, so I wouldn't want you to stop! Thanks for making me be somewhat thinky today! :D
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And as far as fanfic goes, I'll read practically anything set during any period (well, Sam has to at least be 16 for me to not be squicked), but my own personal fanon is what I said above, lol.
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Unfortunately for me, I just tend to be *annoyed* by anything that doesn't allow for there to be wincest going on. Boys, stop fighting and being distant! Dean, stop banging girls and pushing Sam to do so! Evil things, leave the boys alone, so they can doooooooo it!!!!
Heh. But that's my illness. I've nicknamed it Denial. ;)
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And I am, too! I've been SO frustrated this season, not w/ the show so much (cause I'm actually LOVING the stories this year), but more w/ the lack of brotherly moments and opportunities to write some awesome wincest! There's been a serious lack of Sam/Dean fics this year cause the canon is fucking up the wincesty vibes. *is annoyed* Lol, clearly we're all insane, but it's so much FUN! :D
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You said it, sister.
Hey, speaking of meta and discussion- did you see this?
http://community.livejournal.com/wincest/2055540.html
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OP?
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And OP means original poster, which is you, since you made these posts and the polls. :)
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OP? Ohhh, I have a title now! OP! OP! *head swells...*
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Hahaha! I see I've created a monster...LOL! ;P
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Yeah, a monster, who is TOTALLY distracted by your flickering ICON and the lovely poses you are sharing with Himself!
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Hahaha, I need to have someone make me a new one of the pics I just got w/ him in September. He's amazing!!
Also, you totally beat me to friending you! I was totally gonna ask to be friends, too! Heee!! Added you back! :D
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(Just to disagree with you here, I do think that underage Dean would have allowed it, but as he got older he would have allowed it less and less as he grew to understand what they were doing. Which then would have brought discord between the brothers, esp if Sam wanted it to continue. At the very least, they would have had some strife to deal with. I read a brilliant WIP that dealt with this very issue, Dean letting the sex happen, but refusing to take it all the way, I think that might have influenced me.)
But as for it really meaning something? I’m with you. Season 1 was still full of them getting to know each other, trying to fit back into their own roles, one which Sam had almost totally outgrown, that of the little brother. Plus I always got the feeling they had their hands full with that, partly because, from what canon seems to indicate, that they’d never actually been alone on a hunt before that. Certainly Sam was surprised to find out that Dad had let Dean go hunting by himself. Even if they’d had underage sex, at that point, they’re a bit busy and all focused on finding Dad. No time to get emotionally involved – or at least more emotionally involved than they already are and in a way that would lead to grownup Wincest.
Angry sex after John died? I like that! I tend to soften anger and turn it another way, but I can totally see Dean being so angry and turning to take it out on Sam and having THAT turn into something else. Angry sex. With biting and bruises and stuff. Mmmmmmmmmmm.
And you’re welcome for the polls. I have stuff I should be doing, but a co worker brought me a pepsi, so, I’m hopped on caffine again today. : D
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Dean was SO broken after John died, and he even admitted to Gordon in Bloodlust that he couldn't talk to Sam about it. I think it was pretty obvious that he turned to anger and brutality in hunting for a while there to deal w/ losing John. I mean, he smashed up his BABY cause he was so frustrated and hurt and angry. So that leads me to think that any sex going on at that point would be angry sex. And...that's probably why I wouldn't want to see their "first time" happen in that time frame, cause I'd want their first sexual experience to not be just a physical thing to erase the pain, but more about *them* and about how they need each other and love each other. But then again, I'm a complete romantic like that, so that may skew my bias a bit, lol.
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So much WORD to all of this. I had this discussion in the car with my friend the other day, and I came to just about the same conclusion that you did. Especially if they started with just playing doctor and sparring in the backyard and then a sexual relationship grew out of that, I can totally see Dean growing reluctant as he became more and more aware of societal norms and expectations that maybe weren't as influential on them as socially-isolated children. I can also see Sam, stubborn as he is, not understanding why their relationship would have to change, and his anger over feeling rejected by Dean putting "artificial" limits on their relationship would create a totally new distance between them that could even have contributed in a round-about way to his leaving for Stanford.
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Although, I'd never thought, until you brought it up, that Dean's putting the kibosh on the sex was one of the reasons that Sam left. I've read a few stories that have Dean allowing the sex to happen to try to get Sam to stay, but I'm sure it could have gone either way...because regardless, Sammy left. I'm positive he cried as the bus pulled out. : (