Followup Post to Wincest “When” Poll

[lovesrain44]

You guys are the best! When I did the Wincest "When" poll (and the others) I not only got lots of voting going on, but also some really interesting feedback. So thank you! Lots of people gave me lovely links, too, for which I also am grateful.

Here are my thinky thoughts on the earlier poll… (link to the new poll at the bottom of post and here)

I realized early on that this poll doesn’t prove anyone right or wrong. It doesn’t prove that I’m wrong for thinking the Wincest happened after ELAC, nor does it prove that the people who voted for the “Before the Pilot” option are wrong either. All the poll shows is that the majority of people who voted think Wincest happened early on, way before the series even began and everyone is entitled to their opinion. There certainly is enough fanfic to support ALL theories, so this post isn’t about wrong or right, it’s just me thinking it through, and feeling that this poll had a kind of reaction that kept me thinking about it some more.

It never occurred to me that the majority of voters had any other idea than I did about the first time Wincest occurred, because logically to me, the Wincest happened after John died. There’s no other way for it to happen, because John’s death, in my mind, became the catalyst for them to come together. Even considering that young male teens in Sam and Dean’s situation would “fool around” I still felt that the real Wincest happened later, rather than earlier. So I’m not convinced by the poll, nor am I going to change my personal mind; I still enjoy good Wincest fanfic, no matter when it’s set, either pre-series, during the series, or after the series, although I don’t read deathfic because it tears me up.

In addition to being way off base as to what other people thought, looking at the poll itself, I was surprised by the numbers. I was sure I would see numbers scattered all over the place, that there would be a roughly equal number of votes for all options and that the votes would be spread across all four seasons, and that there would be tons of people making up their own categories, as provided for in the “These options are terrible!” option. But no. Most numbers are tucked into Season 1 options, because most people, as they posted, are of the opinion that Sam and Dean were always set up to love only each other, that they started having sex early and often, etc.

There were a total of 91 votes. Of those, these are the top three categories:

Before the Pilot (underage): 22 total votes; 24% of the votes.

During Season One (Before DMB): 16 total votes; 17% of the votes.

During Season Two, after John died (After ELAC): 10 total votes; 11% of the votes.

For a while, the “Before the Pilot” option and the “During Season One” option were neck and neck, and while watching the poll progress I thought for sure the “During Season One” option would win out. After all, there are tons of eps between the Pilot and DMB; lots of room for maneuverability, tons of time for Dean and Sam to start having sex. When I combine the top two scores, a whopping 41% (almost half) think that Wincest happened before Season 1 was even over, but the “Before the Pilot” option won hands down. According to the poll, Sam and Dean are more than just best friends with benefits!

Still puzzled, I considered that my poll itself might be faulty in that I didn’t make the definition of Wincest clear enough. Well, I checked SuperWiki and it says that Wincest is a sexual or romantic relationship between Sam and Dean, which seems to mean any sex, any time, for any reason, so the idea of what Wincest is wide, wide open. I think part of my confusion comes from the fact that I think “fooling around” is sexual, but not romantic, and fooling around is all the underage lads could be doing, and therefore, because of the lack of romance, what they would be doing isn’t anything I would qualify as romantic, and thus not Wincest. The other part of my confusion stems from the fact that I come from a slash background and am used to only using eps to prove a theory, or discuss an idea. In most slash pairings (Starsky and Hutch, Kirk and Spock) you only have bits and pieces (through dialog references) of the past to go from, so most slash takes place within the series time frame, or after.

Pre-series SPN is so nebulous and unknown (except for the marvelous flashbacks in SW and ASC), and we have only dialog to go by, stuff Sam or Dean or John or whoever has to say about the past – none of which demonstrates any indication that Wincest was going on. So why, I’m wondering, do so many have this opinion, and are they, essentially, pulling it out of thin air? Well, they are and they aren’t.

There isn’t any real evidentiary evidence for Pre-Series Wincest. I mean, really, there isn’t. There’s nothing in canon that points to this even the slightest; when we see Wee Dean and Wee Sam together they are not all sweetness and light. Sam’s bitching about wanting Lucky Charms, Dean’s stalking off to play video games; Sam’s asking too many questions, Dean’s stalking off because he doesn’t want to talk about Mom. Sam’s crying into his pillow, and Dean is out shoplifting and breaking into people’s houses, but no one is having sex that we can see. So where are people getting it from?

I think people are extrapolating, taking what they see in canon and working backwards. Fans see the brothers as they are in the series: Sam and Dean have no one else in the world but each other, they are very touchy feely, high emo, they know what buttons to push, they’re all over each other all the time, even if they aren’t touching each other. We get the idea from this that they have always lived in each other’s back pockets, that each knows the other like the back of their own hand – but does this lead to them having sex in their teens or even earlier? Maybe yes, maybe no. While I like underage Wincest, I think it’s part logical conjecture (constantly being on the move and their strange vocation keeps them isolation from the world which brings them together early on), part wishful thinking (oh, they’re so hot, I MUST slash them!! Besides, there’s no one else I can slash them with but each other, what’s a slash fan to do?) I’m not complaining, mind you, just confused. Besides, the fic is hot, so I’ll keep reading it.

However, there does seem to be evidentiary evidence for Wincest within Season 1, even if it doesn’t match my pet theory of it happening first after ELAC in Season 2. For example, I think it’s in Provenance where Sam and Dean are in a motel room. Dean is encouraging Sam to hook up with Sarah. Sam is protesting, and Dean says, “Is it Jessica?” and Sam says, “No, it’s not just Jessica,” or something like that that seems to indicate there’s a deeper problem here, one that many fans (myself included) postulate as being the pre-existing relationship between Sam and Dean. THAT’s why he’s not going off with Sarah. Then there’s other Wincesty moments like the one charmedstrange1 pointed out, the famous bureau scene where Dean tries to explain why he wanted Sam with him when Dad disappeared. I had lots of people presenting lots of good ideas, and then I had a handful of people complaining that they couldn’t pick, they didn’t want to pick, and then they stomped off and voted anyway! I love you guys.

Take the new poll!
 

Comments

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm. You do realize I'm supposed to be doing homework, right? No? Aaaanyway...

I love all the thinkery thinking going on here. Your thoughts here bring a couple of points out to me. One is- the distinction of whether the guys, as youngsters, would've been just "fooling around" versus a romantic connection. I can't help but see their whole relationship as romantic, even if it weren't sexual, even during the annoying pestering ages. Because of their history, and Sam literally being placed into Dean's arms for safekeeping, and all those intervening years when we've been *shown* that it was Sam-n-Dean against the world, boy to me that's a romance if I've ever seen one. But then you already know, for me their love for each other, *intimate* love even, predates the sex.

The other thing is- in reading your possible explanation for the prevalence of the pre-series theory, I can re-read that whole section and replace "pre-series" with "wincest" itself and to me, it's the same thing. We *all* are just piecing together and extrapolating, and reading into things, to come up with wincest to begin with, much less to constrain it to a particular time frame. Granted, they put it out there for us on a silver platter, but I think we can probably all agree that *actual* wincest is not canon, and will never be canon. Unless I become Dictator of the Americas, and can make it so.

That being said, there is another piece of "evidentiary evidence" that I have always thought about as "Aw c'mon, that was totally a gimme to the slash audience"- and that is the scene after Dean has been in the alternate universe while the djinn had him and they say the lines (Ugh, I can't remember the exact lines and I don't know who said which!) something like- "But then we never would have..." and it actually fades without finishing the sentence, and the other says "Well I'm glad we do."

*blink* What??

Oooooh yeah. Totally pandering to the slashers there. *g*

With this whole question, for my perspective, I came here from the Stargate SG-1 fandom, where I first learned the ways of slash ;), and in that canon, the OTP were totally not together and had legal and ethical reasons why they *shouldn't* be together, and also were competing with a het pairing which was just on the flirting edges of canon and was at the very least presented as UST in canon. The odds were stacked against us. (But there was so much *chemistry*, you couldn't *not* slash them.)

We still had debates and issues about when and why and would they get around the regulations and would Jack compromise his command that way and would Daniel compromise his ethics and/or endanger Jack's career blah blah-- the point was- nothing we decided to believe was canon or ever would be. So questions of logistics just never did bother me. I will suspend disbelief in a minute for hot fic. Sam and Dean first did it beside John's burning pyre? Hell yeah, write me that fic. The only thing I *do* ask, is make me believe it's *them*. To me, characterization is the thing. Then the rosepetal-drenched continuum (omg, you are made of crack!) can happen anywhere, any-when you say, and I'll buy it. ;)

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

Just in time for our lively discussion- did you see this?

http://community.livejournal.com/wincest/2055540.html

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

No, and thanks for the link! I went and posted the polls and stuff, so I'm in the queue for approval. I do hope they have a "poll" tag!

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm. You do realize I'm supposed to be doing homework, right? No? Aaaanyway...


Bwaaa haaa haaa!


I love all the thinkery thinking going on here.< … >But then you know, for me their love for each other, *intimate* love even, predates the sex.

Because I felt that wincest first happened after ELAC, I was trying to justify my agreement with the whole underage thing by distinguishing the kinds of wincest there were. Like, there’s the “I love him but am not going to act on it” all the way up to “PORN!” I think the WeeBoys could have been romantic about it (love without the sex), but they seem awful young for something that to me seems to be a sophisticated emotion. I don’t know, at this point, if it’s appropriate to make that type of distinction. I’m sure they loved each other though, with or without sex.


<…> Granted, they put it out there for us on a silver platter, but I think we can probably all agree that *actual* wincest is not canon, and will never be canon. Unless I become Dictator of the Americas, and can make it so.

I guess my point here is that there is NO evidentiary evidence for pre-series wincest, only extrapolation (done marvelously well in so many, many fanfics) to support the idea that Sam and Dean tumbled into bed together at a young age. Whereas in canon there seems to be breadcrumbs – not evidentiary evidence, mind you, but there’s SOMETHING there that we can hang our hats on and say, “this scene,” or “that expression.” Of course, if you get down to it, all fanfic is not canon let alone the wincest, but I hate to look at a discussion like this because it seems to be selfevident. It’s like saying, “They went swimming.” And then adding, “Of course they were in water….” Like that’s not already understood. I’m not saying wincest is canon, but if it was? Where would it have started? Hence this poll. And for me, canon provides an arena where less extrapolation needs to be done to get the final result, where as pre-series wincest requires more, thus making the argument it less solid for me.

<…>... I don't know who said which!) something like- "But then we never would have..." and it actually fades without finishing the sentence, and the other says "Well I'm glad we do." *blink* What?? Oooooh yeah. Totally pandering to the slashers there. *g*



YES! I love that moment and was thinking about it yesterday! What on earth!? I think it was Sam who said, “Well, I’m glad we do.” I always thought that what the writers intended Dean to mean was something along the lines of: “But then we never would have…been so close as brothers” To which Sam, to be linguistically consistent, should have replied: “Well, I’m glad we ARE.” That Sam replies with the verb DO implies another kind of statement from Dean altogether. Dean would have had to say something like, “…been close enough to fuck like bunnies.” (Or even: “…been fucking like we do.”) To which Sam could say, “Well, I’m glad we do.” See? Get me a bunch of English majors and we could come up with what the rest of Dean’s sentence would have to have been! What do you think, another poll? Or…too esoteric and specific?



<…> But there was so much *chemistry*, you couldn't *not* slash them.)<…> the point was- nothing we decided to believe was canon or ever would be. So questions of logistics just never did bother me. I will suspend disbelief in a minute for hot fic. Sam and Dean first did it beside John's burning pyre? Hell yeah, write me that fic. The only thing I *do* ask, is make me believe it's *them*. To me, characterization is the thing. Then the rosepetal-drenched continuum (omg, you are made of crack!) can happen anywhere, any-when you say, and I'll buy it. ;)

I agree totally – give me good characterization, make me believe it and I’ll buy fanfic, even AU, where Dean is sweet and mild and Sam’s a mechanic, I’ll buy anything that a fanfic writer can sell me. And they’ve sold me a lot. In my own little pea brain, though, I’ve kind of settled on my post ELAC moment, though I’ve yet to write anything as hot and porny and convincing like, say, Fleshflutter or Plutogirl10’s stuff. And maybe never will, but I can talk about it!! And get others to talk…..my evil plan is working!

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

"Because I felt that wincest first happened after ELAC, I was trying to justify my agreement with the whole underage thing by distinguishing the kinds of wincest there were."

You don't have to justify it, honey. Just give in to it. ;) Your ELAC theory can still stand- denial and repression are powerful, powerful things.

"I think the WeeBoys could have been romantic about it (love without the sex), but they seem awful young for something that to me seems to be a sophisticated emotion."

I think this kind of sophistication might be possible for some kids. Not on the level an adult would have, certainly, but in the child's version. Dean and Sam were certainly kids who had to be wise beyond their years way too early. And I can remember being "in love" when I was a pre-adolescent- we're talking 7, 8, 9- I mean crushes that *lasted* a while- and I would get all heartbroken over- so much so that I can still remember them today. But then, maybe I was just a warped, strange child. :P

Whereas in canon there seems to be breadcrumbs – not evidentiary evidence, mind you, but there’s SOMETHING there that we can hang our hats on and say, “this scene,” or “that expression.” Of course, if you get down to it, all fanfic is not canon let alone the wincest, but I hate to look at a discussion like this because it seems to be selfevident."

I think I kind of see it from the opposite direction- to me, the leap is to the wincest (is it freudian that I keep mis-typing that as "sincest"?), and though, yes, they kind of offer it up to us, for me it's still a bigger step to go from canon to wincest than it is from wincest to, okay, it started when they were lads.

I mean now, as adults, we see the looks and the touching and the angst, and of course we're not gonna see any of that in their childhood, (well, except for the angst), with as young as they've been the times we've seen them, so it *is* just extrapolation- how they grew up, how close they are, etc- but again the logical divide of, 1) "doing it" versus "not doing it", and 2) "doing it *now*" versus "doing it now *and back then*", well the first one just seems qualitatively a larger divide to me, evidence or hints notwithstanding. But then again, maybe I've just taken too many statistics courses. :P

"Get me a bunch of English majors and we could come up with what the rest of Dean’s sentence would have to have been! What do you think, another poll?"

When I take off my tinhat and slash goggles, I always thought that that thought was meant to end in something like, "gotten to know each other again, worked together, loved each other like we do"- but you're right. That whole "do" instead of "are"- a peculiar word choice, and soooo begging to be read into.

And a poll is never not a good idea. :)

"And get others to talk…..my evil plan is working!"

You, my friend, are an evil genius. I knew this from the time I read "This is Sparta."

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

You don't have to justify it, honey. Just give in to it. ;) Your ELAC theory can still stand- denial and repression are powerful, powerful things.

But I’m ANAL like that! I’m hardwired, besides, to over analyze things. The good thing about that is that later I’m rock solid in my opinion and cannot be swayed, and thusly I annoy people at parties.



...Dean and Sam were certainly kids who had to be wise beyond their years way too early. And I can remember being "in love" when I was a pre-adolescent- we're talking 7, 8, 9- I mean crushes that *lasted* a while- and I would get all heartbroken over- so much so that I can still remember them today. But then, maybe I was just a warped, strange child. :P


We’re all warped otherwise we wouldn’t be here! But I think there’s a difference between having a crush, being in love, and associating that with adult sex. Am I drawing too fine a line here? Dean and Sam certainly would have slept together a LOT, esp when young, Dad had one bed, they had the other. Some stories have the dad taking another room and leaving the boys to themselves, but I think, personally, that that never happened. They shared beds forever. How does that support my theory? Because you can’t jack off in private, and therefore it doesn’t become a private issue; you start to share, but it doesn’t have the connotation/weight it will have till later. Anyway, that’s my theory, I love it, but will read any fanfic that does it right.



I think I kind of see it from the opposite direction- to me, the leap is to the wincest (is it freudian that I keep mis-typing that as "sincest"?), and though, yes, they kind of offer it up to us, for me it's still a bigger step to go from canon to wincest than it is from wincest to, okay, it started when they were lads.


Interesting. I see what you’re saying here. If you’re already on the train of sin, it’s a small leap from Wincest to preseries. I guess I’ve been reading slash for so long that my brain is well trained to look for evidence in what we see, not what we imagine might have happened. All that English Lit training too – is it deconstructionism that has the analysis based on the novel alone and not what we know about the author? I forget.


I mean now, as adults, we see the looks and the touching and the angst, and of course we're not gonna see any of that in their childhood, ... how they grew up, how close they are, etc- but again the logical divide of, 1) "doing it" versus "not doing it", and 2) "doing it *now*" versus "doing it now *and back then*", well the first one just seems qualitatively a larger divide to me, evidence or hints notwithstanding. But then again, maybe I've just taken too many statistics courses. :P


Then again, statistics can be presented to support any number of theories. But I can see what you are saying about the leap of logic. I still think, even given that as close as they were as boys that any fooling around they did…was transitory, different times that Dean was going in and out of being a teenager, I’ll bet you that he sometimes ignored Sam or doted on him – so any wincest was ragged at best. So I think we’re at opposing ends of this particular question, because of the logic jump thing, but I totally love how you lay it out here.



When I take off my tinhat and slash goggles, I always thought that that thought was meant to end in something like, "gotten to know each other again, worked together, loved each other like we do"- but you're right. That whole "do" instead of "are"- a peculiar word choice, and soooo begging to be read into. And a poll is never not a good idea. :)

I will take a look at it, wouldn’t want to bore people with uninteresting polls. They seem to enjoy the ones that talk about sex, and this one…well, I guess this one does, if you diagram the sentence right, I’m going to steal your phrase “begging to be read into,” okay?



"And get others to talk…..my evil plan is working!"

You, my friend, are an evil genius. I knew this from the time I read "This is Sparta."

Poor Sammy! If he didn’t suffer so well, none of this would be happening to him.

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

I got the transcript from the Dean_Sam lj:

From What is and what should never be:

DEAN
(clears throat)
Yeah, I'm alright.
(paus)
Should have seen it, Sam. Our lives. You were such a wozzie.

SAM
(smiles)
So we didn't get along then, huh?

DEAN
No..

SAM
Yeah.. I thought it was supposed to, to be this perfect fantisy.

DEAN
It wasn't.
(puts down the magazine)
Was just a wish. I wished for mom to live. That mom never died, we never went hunting and you and me just never uh.. You know.

SAM
(quietly)
Yeah..
(beat)
Well, I'm glad we do. And I'm glad you dugg yourself out, Dean. Most people wouldn't have the strength, would have just stayed.


***

I always thought that what the writers intended Dean to mean was something along the lines of: “But then we never would have…been so close as brothers” To which Sam, to be linguistically consistent, should have replied: “Well, I’m glad we ARE.”


But when I read this transcript, it's having Dean saying "I wished that you and me never...uh, you know."

So is he saying "I wished you and me never started having sex?"

Because Sam's saying "I'm glad we do," rather puts a different spin on it, don't you think?

Or does the transcriber have it wrong? What's a wozzie? Isn't that spelled wussie? And isn't dug spelled with only one g?

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Um, I think I responded to my own reply, so you might not have gotten my "addendum" response, about the transcript.....