...I can accept that if and only if Sam never accepts John's affection....
Part of why I’m writing these stories is to work through the fun question as to why Sam left like he did.(Not broken, obviously, although pretty unhappy.) I’m going off a couple of things which are in canon, which could be interpreted any number of ways, and this is the way I’m choosing to do it. First, there’s the line in bugs where Sam is bringing up the whole wanting to play soccer instead of learning bow hunting. Dean mentions that Sam was a pain in Dad’s side, and that maybe he did need to be taken down a peg or two, and then Sam says, “You don’t remember, do you.” Which rather implies to me that bad things happened that Dean has blocked. Second thing is the many times Sam says some derisive thing about John’s drinking habits (and, like in Something Wicked) that if there’d been more drinking and less hunting, yeah, they would have had Max’s childhood, which always meant to me that they ALMOST did, it was just a question of degree, at least to Sam. Lastly, is the line, I can’t remember the ep, John is snapping out orders and Sam and Dean both stand there, swallow, and say, “Yes, sir,” like they’d been trained to. And in Dead Man’s Blood, what grown man grabs his fully grown son like John did Sam? All of that, yeah, pretty provocative to me.
Truly, I agree with what someone said upthread about John not being like that a great deal of the time, because Sam would not have comparably favored John to Max's abusive father.
See below about the “moments of kindness” …
...I have to disagree about the assertion earlier upthread that John was not abusive...
Actually, I think that was my assertion because in my mind, the way I’m writing him, he’s not being abusive, he’s trying to train Sam so that Sam will be safe. He’s hard and stern and cold and not very fun, but he’s not tying Sam to a hot water heater, or starving him for days and days or, pulling out his teeth for fun like the abusers I’ve read about do. It’s a question of degree obviously.
However, I do hope you don't have a reconciliation between John and Sam. I don't want Sam to be a lapdog...
You know what – this statement is EXACTLY what I’ve had in my head since the beginning, that there can be no reconciliation, no redemption, nothing. John’s not going to give in, and Sam’s not going to bend. Sure, he’ll train, but he’s not going to like it, and he’s still got plenty to say about it. And even if he enjoys parts of it (like working with maps), there’s no way in hell he’s going to let John know. Your observation here was SO spot on, it scared me, because it was like you were IN my head! The story ends when Sam goes back to school, lean and tan and strong, but not appreciating any of it. In his mind, boys should play soccer and visit the pool and go to the park in summer, end of story. He’ll be pissed at John forever about this, which is why, I’m postulating (or at least partly why) Sam left when and the way he did.
At the same time, as you and others have said, if John is mean ALL the time, then Sam and Dean would not have grown up to be the swell fellows that they are. Which means, I think, that between the hard parts, there have to have been some soft spots, some good times, cans of cold spaghettios shared, or the nod from Dad or just a break in the heat of the noonday sun. In Sam’s mind, yeah that’s cool, but the training continues, so that negates everything. He still hates it, still doesn’t want to be there, still has a grudge.
Personally, I still think this John would have died during a hunt....
Oh, I don’t know. Even if John is abusive, he’s still Sam’s Dad – Sam looks at him as Dad, still loves him, and a part of him wishes it were different, even though he knows it will never be.
Then again, karma's a real bitch ; - )...
If John falls apart emotionally, then that wouldn’t be in character either – I think there’s a bit of a line forming as to those readers who would like to truly HURT this version of John……
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Part of why I’m writing these stories is to work through the fun question as to why Sam left like he did.(Not broken, obviously, although pretty unhappy.) I’m going off a couple of things which are in canon, which could be interpreted any number of ways, and this is the way I’m choosing to do it. First, there’s the line in bugs where Sam is bringing up the whole wanting to play soccer instead of learning bow hunting. Dean mentions that Sam was a pain in Dad’s side, and that maybe he did need to be taken down a peg or two, and then Sam says, “You don’t remember, do you.” Which rather implies to me that bad things happened that Dean has blocked. Second thing is the many times Sam says some derisive thing about John’s drinking habits (and, like in Something Wicked) that if there’d been more drinking and less hunting, yeah, they would have had Max’s childhood, which always meant to me that they ALMOST did, it was just a question of degree, at least to Sam. Lastly, is the line, I can’t remember the ep, John is snapping out orders and Sam and Dean both stand there, swallow, and say, “Yes, sir,” like they’d been trained to. And in Dead Man’s Blood, what grown man grabs his fully grown son like John did Sam? All of that, yeah, pretty provocative to me.
Truly, I agree with what someone said upthread about John not being like that a great deal of the time, because Sam would not have comparably favored John to Max's abusive father.
See below about the “moments of kindness” …
...I have to disagree about the assertion earlier upthread that John was not abusive...
Actually, I think that was my assertion because in my mind, the way I’m writing him, he’s not being abusive, he’s trying to train Sam so that Sam will be safe. He’s hard and stern and cold and not very fun, but he’s not tying Sam to a hot water heater, or starving him for days and days or, pulling out his teeth for fun like the abusers I’ve read about do. It’s a question of degree obviously.
However, I do hope you don't have a reconciliation between John and Sam. I don't want Sam to be a lapdog...
You know what – this statement is EXACTLY what I’ve had in my head since the beginning, that there can be no reconciliation, no redemption, nothing. John’s not going to give in, and Sam’s not going to bend. Sure, he’ll train, but he’s not going to like it, and he’s still got plenty to say about it. And even if he enjoys parts of it (like working with maps), there’s no way in hell he’s going to let John know. Your observation here was SO spot on, it scared me, because it was like you were IN my head! The story ends when Sam goes back to school, lean and tan and strong, but not appreciating any of it. In his mind, boys should play soccer and visit the pool and go to the park in summer, end of story. He’ll be pissed at John forever about this, which is why, I’m postulating (or at least partly why) Sam left when and the way he did.
At the same time, as you and others have said, if John is mean ALL the time, then Sam and Dean would not have grown up to be the swell fellows that they are. Which means, I think, that between the hard parts, there have to have been some soft spots, some good times, cans of cold spaghettios shared, or the nod from Dad or just a break in the heat of the noonday sun. In Sam’s mind, yeah that’s cool, but the training continues, so that negates everything. He still hates it, still doesn’t want to be there, still has a grudge.
Personally, I still think this John would have died during a hunt....
Oh, I don’t know. Even if John is abusive, he’s still Sam’s Dad – Sam looks at him as Dad, still loves him, and a part of him wishes it were different, even though he knows it will never be.
Then again, karma's a real bitch ; - )...
If John falls apart emotionally, then that wouldn’t be in character either – I think there’s a bit of a line forming as to those readers who would like to truly HURT this version of John……