Can You Say Wow? I Knew That You Could

[lovesrain44]

This recently got posted at Fandom Secrets, which I check every day because it's so dang fun:



And I can say that I don't know when I have been as flattered as this.

Except for my friend amothea bugging me week in and week out, the stories never got a lot of feedback, so I really thought that the two of us were the only ones who liked them. That they were personal guilty pleasures only, and not....well, just not what people wanted. To find that there was at least one other person out there who also liked them, well.

I assure Anon, not at all pathetic, that I do have more stories in my head for this.

One thing I had to be sure of was to not back out of the contract I had set with myself, that John stayed John, and kept being the tough drill sergeant for the summer from hell. And that Dean and Sam remained true to the themselves in this era, somewhat at odds, not quite getting along. It's turned out to be harder than I had thought, to keep it edgy and mean. But I want to write them, I do. Writing Blue Skies took it out of me a bit, but the stories are most assuredly there. In my head.

Thank you again for the tremendous complement in being sad that there have been no updates in over a year. Over a year? I am sad too, now!

Edit: The stories did get a lot of feedback, and a lot of readers liked the darkness and the grit. I guess I always felt that since this verse was so personal to me that....oh, never mind. I'm not even sure what I'm saying now.  Foolish writer is foolish and should just write what feels good.

 

Comments

Thread A

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Yeah, OKAY! I feel badly that he’s not gotten the otter pops, you have to believe me! And he’ll be getting one…but later…much later.



Yes, of course, they love each other and it’s a deep and abiding love. It’s sort of a heavy love too, not like John and Dean have for each other, which seems a much easier burden to bear. How do you love someone who makes you so MAD you could kill something? That’s much harder to do. And thank you for reminding me of more moments of love between them, even though I’m still thinking that there were more bad moments than good ones.

Yes, finally, they get a hug and some reconciliation after John ignores Sam and hugs Dean and talks to Dean and ignores Sam some more! But yes, there was a hug, a manly, hug, and John even sheds a tear over it. Oh, I know, I know, John’s love for Sam is profound, which is proven by the fact that they hug and don’t say anything.




Jerry Panowski, in Phantom Traveler. Yes, it spoke volumes that Dad had bragged to his friend about Sam but never told Sam. I think Jerry also said that he got Sam as a very nice replacement for John, which was a neat foreshadowing of how Sam was going to become very much like John as time went on. I remember thinking that Dean’s expression said, “See? Dad does love you!” and Sam’s expression being one of pure astonishment.








I believe that they did care about each other too, so I agree with you, even though it might not seem like it. : D
There’s actually a comfort level there between Sam and John because you usually can only YELL like that at someone you trust to be there when you’re done yelling. And who’s going to yell back, because underneath it all, it matters to Sam what John is doing and saying. If he didn’t care, he wouldn’t be all up in arms.

On the other hand, all Dean does is say yes and no and jump when John says jump. The times when he does speak up about something bothering him, his tone is not nearly as strong as Sam’s, and Sam and John seem surprised to see Dean doing it in the first place. (Shadow? When Dean is defending himself and Sam when John accuses them of not imparting crucial information…”When were you going to tell me this???” Go, John! Way to make a double standard.) What’s especially fun for me after that is when John goes, “Well, I’m not in love with this new tone of yours,” to Dean, and the key word is “new.” Which speaks to me that before this, Dean hardly spoke up to protest anything John did. Sam tho is an old hand at talking back, and John is not surprised.

Whether their yelling and conflict caused any permanent damage, I’m thinking no. Otherwise, Sam wouldn’t be talking to John at all, let alone being in the same room with him. There’s the oft-mentioned argument that if John had done such a bad job, would Sam and Dean have turned out okay? I always think that if John did a lot wrong, he did a lot right, which is why Sam and Dean turned out okay, but are really messed up anyhow. : D






Even when John died and Sam felt guilty because his last words were in anger-- even then, John *knew* that Sam's anger was displaced-


John did know that, I’m sure of it, so he was probably forgiving Sam even as they were yelling. The problem is Sam has trouble with it, because he thinks that John thought Sam hated him.


and John still 'took the heat' and didn't correct Sam's thinking even though he was being wrongly accused of not giving a shit about Dean. <...>


I agree that John was taking the heat of Sam’s anger, but I don’t think it was solely to protect Sam, because protect him from what? From knowing what John’s going to do? I guess I could see that, but more it feels like it’s from John’s stubbornness to do things his way. Not because he doesn’t give a shit, but because he’s sure his is the right way. If he’d told Sam, Sam might have tried to convince John to give the doctors a shot. As it was, John believed the demon when he said that Dean would die. Demons lie, right? Anyway, John’s in between a rock and another rock, so in that instance, he’s going to keep his mouth shut for all kinds of reason, a lot of them having to do with him preferring to keep his own counsel.

Re: Thread A

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

Here I am! Finally, after clawing my way to the end of this god-awful week of real life... now for something I can *enjoy* :D

so first off---

... he’ll be getting one…but later…much later.

*whimper**whimper* I am suffering along with Sam. You are aware of this, correct? ;)

...more moments of love between them, even though I’m still thinking that there were more bad moments than good ones.

Yes- I agree completely, in canon there are definitely more bad moments shown between John and Sam than good ones. My thinking is that there were reasons for this; to a) show the overall, historical contentious nature of their relationship and that b) it was a reflection of the time and circumstance-- the battle/search for the demon was heating up, Sam had an agenda for revenge and John was making that harder by hiding from the boys, while John had his own agenda for doing so and Sam wouldn't step-to and play good soldier to make things easier for John-- they really both had the same goals (mostly) but were at loggerheads about it. BUT, I do think that they also had a reason for showing the good stuff, so that we see that it wasn't all a hate-hate relationship between the two of them, and while they couldn't get along they still really love each other. I believe we can say, on all of this, that we agree.

(Incidentally, I take most of my beliefs about their relationship from canon but I do admit that there have been times when I refuse to believe Canon, that I think they got it wrong. After the first couple of seasons I had pretty much made up my mind about who was whom in this story, and if canon goes against that after the fact, I put my hands over my ears and sing LA LA LA LA very loudly. Case in point-- the whole extra son thing. I can absolutely buy that John would have a fling and a son someplace, and maybe, if I squint and try real hard, can believe that he would keep him a secret from Sam and Dean, because of the hunting, etc. I WILL NOT believe, and this is where I get petty and obsessive, that John would have TAKEN THE EXTRA BOY TO FUCKING BALL GAMES WHEN HE NEVER DID THAT FOR SAM AND DEAN. LOL. I know, right? But that just bugs the hell outa me. NO. JUST NO. My John Winchester was an obsessed, stubborn asshole, but he wasn't heartless. I just can't see it, and so I refuse to believe it. LMAO- so this is my disclaimer on rationality when it comes to these men.)

John did know that, I’m sure of it, so he was probably forgiving Sam even as they were yelling. -- I think that is what I was trying to say with the 'protecting' thing-- that John knew Sam was off the mark but was forgiving him anyway-- not holding this against Sam. I know, still fucked Sam up, but the fact that John *was* forgiving him was a tenderness he didn't have to show, and maybe wouldn't have if he didn't love Sam or if he weren't a good enough man. I was just using this as another example of John not being as complete an asshole as he *could* have been.

Re: Thread A

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry your week sucked, mine did too, I kept thinking about this conversation and holding it in the back of my mind to enjoy when things calmed down.

And yes I know you're suffering, I do! I asked my sister about Sam getting an otter pop, and she thought Dean should sneak some into Sam, but she's never read this series and doesn't know that Dean and Sam aren't getting along so well this summer. Plus I think it would mean more if John got them for Sam, don't you?

And yes, we agree, there's a love there, but it's buried awesomely deep.

As for the extra son, OMYGOD! No kidding. John was many things, but capricious and mercurial he was not. I remember that ep, thinking that it KILLED Dean to know that John had another boy that he showed more affection to than Dean. I think Show lost its mind at that point, felt above the law, and played fast and loose with the whole thing. To prove what point? Just to hurt Dean because it was fun? Granted it is fun, but nothing that John would have done. He might have had a son, he might have left money or fixed a broken window or something, but he sure as heck wouldn't skip out on Sam and Dean to Play HOUSE with some other boy. No way. So I'm with you there. (And in addition to ball games? Don't forget the fishing trip....*glares at Show*)

And no, John wasn't a complete asshole. He was a jerk sometimes and stubborn and mean and overbearing and all kinds of things, but he loved Sam, just as much as he loved Dean. Only in a different way.

I like to think that early on in their time together, John was focused on making his sons hunters, but not so much on revenge on the thing that killed mom. I mean, the search must have had lulls every now and then when the trail went cold. Otherwise, he wouldn't have had time for the training in Mentone. : D

Re: Thread A

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

As for the extra son, OMYGOD! No kidding. John was many things, but capricious and mercurial he was not. I remember that ep, thinking that it KILLED Dean to know that John had another boy that he showed more affection to than Dean.

OHMYGOD I'm so glad you agreeeee!!! I'm happy to know I'm not the only one who wanted to call bullshit on that whole thing. THANK YOU. :P

I like to think that early on in their time together, John was focused on making his sons hunters, but not so much on revenge on the thing that killed mom.

Yes, I can definitely see a time, during the lulls, when the focus and intent would have been to train the boys up so that they *themselves* would be safe, and that it wasn't all about revenge.

Otherwise, he wouldn't have had time for the training in Mentone. : D

AAAARRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!! XD

Thanks for the commiseration on my sucky week-- this one was better but about a 9.8 on the richter scale of stress-- but the hard part's over now! \0/ Hope yours gets way better soon too. And I'm glad this discussion was a bright spot to think about- it has been for me too!

As to the otter pops, Yes, I Sam definitely would appreciate them more if they were coming from John. :)
[Even though he *would* appreciate the gesture from Dean, he has more of an expectation that Dean will do something nice for him (some of the time, this summer notwithstanding), but no such expectation, or at least a lot smaller one, of this kind of gesture from Dad.]

Re: Thread A

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Is there anyone out there who actually BOUGHT the extra Winchester boy? I could even see John having a child out of wedlock, but not him dishing out all that love. (Although, some would say, if he protected the boy from the hunting life, the boy might have been his only opportunity to have a normal life...My rebuttal would be that by that time, John would have no idea what a normal life was!)

9.8 on the richter scale? Man. And it's not even February yet! Hang in there, Show's on again and Sam and Dean are going to stop the apocalypse any minute now and get back to saving people and hunting things.

The Otter Pops will come from John, you're right, because it would mean more. The thing is, I've not figured out when and why yet. The boys have NO treats while in training, so would the pops come when training is over? I think they should come unexpectedly, out of no reason at all.