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This recently got posted at Fandom Secrets, which I check every day because it's so dang fun:
And I can say that I don't know when I have been as flattered as this.
Except for my friend![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
amothea bugging me week in and week out, the stories never got a lot of feedback, so I really thought that the two of us were the only ones who liked them. That they were personal guilty pleasures only, and not....well, just not what people wanted. To find that there was at least one other person out there who also liked them, well.
I assure Anon, not at all pathetic, that I do have more stories in my head for this.
One thing I had to be sure of was to not back out of the contract I had set with myself, that John stayed John, and kept being the tough drill sergeant for the summer from hell. And that Dean and Sam remained true to the themselves in this era, somewhat at odds, not quite getting along. It's turned out to be harder than I had thought, to keep it edgy and mean. But I want to write them, I do. Writing Blue Skies took it out of me a bit, but the stories are most assuredly there. In my head.
Thank you again for the tremendous complement in being sad that there have been no updates in over a year. Over a year? I am sad too, now!
Edit: The stories did get a lot of feedback, and a lot of readers liked the darkness and the grit. I guess I always felt that since this verse was so personal to me that....oh, never mind. I'm not even sure what I'm saying now. Foolish writer is foolish and should just write what feels good.
And I can say that I don't know when I have been as flattered as this.
Except for my friend
amothea bugging me week in and week out, the stories never got a lot of feedback, so I really thought that the two of us were the only ones who liked them. That they were personal guilty pleasures only, and not....well, just not what people wanted. To find that there was at least one other person out there who also liked them, well. I assure Anon, not at all pathetic, that I do have more stories in my head for this.
One thing I had to be sure of was to not back out of the contract I had set with myself, that John stayed John, and kept being the tough drill sergeant for the summer from hell. And that Dean and Sam remained true to the themselves in this era, somewhat at odds, not quite getting along. It's turned out to be harder than I had thought, to keep it edgy and mean. But I want to write them, I do. Writing Blue Skies took it out of me a bit, but the stories are most assuredly there. In my head.
Thank you again for the tremendous complement in being sad that there have been no updates in over a year. Over a year? I am sad too, now!
Edit: The stories did get a lot of feedback, and a lot of readers liked the darkness and the grit. I guess I always felt that since this verse was so personal to me that....oh, never mind. I'm not even sure what I'm saying now. Foolish writer is foolish and should just write what feels good.
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And I just want to add my name to the list of those eagerly awaiting anything more in that 'verse. I think it incredible and gritty and has such a real-ness to it. It's one of those few fics that have kinda haunted me, if that makes sense. It's one I think about quite a bit. It's something I can so easily imagine happening and having such long-lasting implications for all the boys.
I have in my head (from some unknown source) that you had once mentioned having more in mind about this summer, so I have been hoping that the muse hadn't left. In fact, I got a little excited to see your name on my flist tonight.
The audience is here, babe. Can't wait!
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The fact that it stuck in your brain is a really big compliment.
I did have the plans to write over last summer, but wrote something else instead, and all the while thinking about the cabin in the woods in Mentone, Alabama, and how things were going for Sam. Hot and sweaty and miserable and ever so much fun.....for me, that is, not for Sam.
Now it's *definitely* on the front burner now! Thanks to you guys. : D
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I found my notes....and there they are, my notes. Sitting there, staring at me! When did I do notes? I have notes. I have titles.
I will buy chocolate. I will write these.
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Thank you for being so enthusiastic. Seriously, I am overwhelmed with glad tidings. : D
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I loved writing the two Sparta verse stories, so much so that they almost felt like a guilty pleasure, and so instead of feeling guilty, I wrote my big bang, and worked on that novel, and tried my hand at other things...instead of writing what I really wanted to write.
The fact that you have two tattered print outs is a huge compliment! And reminds me yet again that I should write what I love. Always. So thank you for that.
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First-- YES, WRITE MORE!!! And remember, how (check comments, if they're still waaaay back there somewhere)-- how you and I discussed how I was afraid of that damn swimming river/creek/overgrown-bank that John forbid them to go to until he cleared it out?? I still wanna know what was gonna happen. And, you know, because I'm sick and scarred like this, I wanna know how Sam is healing up from the beating.
Second-- (begin unhelpful)-- This also scares me:
One thing I had to be sure of was to not back out of the contract I had set with myself, that John stayed John, and kept being the tough drill sergeant for the summer from hell... to keep it edgy and mean.
I also have to confess, in my deluded naivety, that the reason I have continued to yearn for more of this story was to yes, see what else would happen to poor Sam, but I also wanted him to either finally 1)find some healing or 2)break and commit patri/fratricide. I'm one of those poor sots who wants their broken boy fixed.
SEKRIT MESSIDGE: I DON'T CARE IF IT'S A SUPER-SEKRIT TIMESTAMP A HUNDRED YEARS IN THE FUTURE WRITTEN JUST ONLY FOR ME. I JUST WANT SOME RELIEF.Or even, you know, a timestamp in the following fall, if you want the whole summer to stay mean. I'm flexible. Just, you know. Sam. *loves on Sam*/unhelpful.
*promises to stay haunted even if you fix Sam*
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And YES! I remember very well your comment about the river thing and John's rule against going there, and I thought, well, that girl's got my number because there is a story in my notes about that VERY thing. But it's not going to be the obvious thing, I think, or maybe it might be very obvious by the time you get there. But yes, gold stars for anticipating that the issue will come up.
And as for which beating he's healing from, in Solder Son, it was Dean's turn, and so...it's been a few weeks since This is Sparta? I think the welts are gone by now, but rest assured I plan on giving him more because I am sick too, like that.
I love Sam. I also love the fact that you want it to go well, that you want there to be closure. This reflects well on you and what is most assuredly your kind and generous heart. However.....I'm sorry to say that closure will not be happening soon. It is a long summer. It is an endless summer and the combination of cruelty that can (and will be) perpetrated on Sam will continue until further notice.
Like I said I love Sam. But if you think about it, the hell that I'm inflicting upon him here, in Mentone, proves his point that a) Sam had a rough childhood where no one understood him, b) his Dad was extra rough on him and, c) that Dean has completely different and happier memories and thusly has no sympathy for Sam. So I'm on his side, really, in this. I'm proving all Sam's complaints about how they were raised as soldiers RIGHT, you see?
I will not fix Sam because that's canon that he's messed up, poor thing. However, as you know and as you go through a story, there's little teeny tiny little pieces of kindness that Dad or Dean hands out. It's not all bad. There will be ice cream, I'm thinking, at one point. And it would be cool if Sam actually got one of those otter pops he's always thinking about, wouldn't it. But it has to be in the right way, in the midst of everything else, an almost thoughtless way. Right? Otherwise, the whole thing turns into a fluffy bunny love fest and that just wouldn't be right, and would negate all of Sam's suffering!!!
when it's all over, every last beating delivered, it would probably be a nice thing to do to have Sam and Dad hug or something, but that might be too fluffy bunny for me....but I could very well see a story about the summer being over, finally, and Sam breathing a sigh of relief that school is about to start, and maybe he'll get to stay a month in one place for once.....(no subject)
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part 2 :P
Re: part 2 :P
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Thread A
Yeah, OKAY! I feel badly that he’s not gotten the otter pops, you have to believe me! And he’ll be getting one…but later…much later.
Yes, of course, they love each other and it’s a deep and abiding love. It’s sort of a heavy love too, not like John and Dean have for each other, which seems a much easier burden to bear. How do you love someone who makes you so MAD you could kill something? That’s much harder to do. And thank you for reminding me of more moments of love between them, even though I’m still thinking that there were more bad moments than good ones.
Yes, finally, they get a hug and some reconciliation after John ignores Sam and hugs Dean and talks to Dean and ignores Sam some more! But yes, there was a hug, a manly, hug, and John even sheds a tear over it. Oh, I know, I know, John’s love for Sam is profound, which is proven by the fact that they hug and don’t say anything.
Jerry Panowski, in Phantom Traveler. Yes, it spoke volumes that Dad had bragged to his friend about Sam but never told Sam. I think Jerry also said that he got Sam as a very nice replacement for John, which was a neat foreshadowing of how Sam was going to become very much like John as time went on. I remember thinking that Dean’s expression said, “See? Dad does love you!” and Sam’s expression being one of pure astonishment.
I believe that they did care about each other too, so I agree with you, even though it might not seem like it. : D
There’s actually a comfort level there between Sam and John because you usually can only YELL like that at someone you trust to be there when you’re done yelling. And who’s going to yell back, because underneath it all, it matters to Sam what John is doing and saying. If he didn’t care, he wouldn’t be all up in arms.
On the other hand, all Dean does is say yes and no and jump when John says jump. The times when he does speak up about something bothering him, his tone is not nearly as strong as Sam’s, and Sam and John seem surprised to see Dean doing it in the first place. (Shadow? When Dean is defending himself and Sam when John accuses them of not imparting crucial information…”When were you going to tell me this???” Go, John! Way to make a double standard.) What’s especially fun for me after that is when John goes, “Well, I’m not in love with this new tone of yours,” to Dean, and the key word is “new.” Which speaks to me that before this, Dean hardly spoke up to protest anything John did. Sam tho is an old hand at talking back, and John is not surprised.
Whether their yelling and conflict caused any permanent damage, I’m thinking no. Otherwise, Sam wouldn’t be talking to John at all, let alone being in the same room with him. There’s the oft-mentioned argument that if John had done such a bad job, would Sam and Dean have turned out okay? I always think that if John did a lot wrong, he did a lot right, which is why Sam and Dean turned out okay, but are really messed up anyhow. : D
Even when John died and Sam felt guilty because his last words were in anger-- even then, John *knew* that Sam's anger was displaced-
John did know that, I’m sure of it, so he was probably forgiving Sam even as they were yelling. The problem is Sam has trouble with it, because he thinks that John thought Sam hated him.
and John still 'took the heat' and didn't correct Sam's thinking even though he was being wrongly accused of not giving a shit about Dean. <...>
I agree that John was taking the heat of Sam’s anger, but I don’t think it was solely to protect Sam, because protect him from what? From knowing what John’s going to do? I guess I could see that, but more it feels like it’s from John’s stubbornness to do things his way. Not because he doesn’t give a shit, but because he’s sure his is the right way. If he’d told Sam, Sam might have tried to convince John to give the doctors a shot. As it was, John believed the demon when he said that Dean would die. Demons lie, right? Anyway, John’s in between a rock and another rock, so in that instance, he’s going to keep his mouth shut for all kinds of reason, a lot of them having to do with him preferring to keep his own counsel.
Re: Thread A
so first off---
... he’ll be getting one…but later…much later.
*whimper**whimper* I am suffering along with Sam. You are aware of this, correct? ;)
...more moments of love between them, even though I’m still thinking that there were more bad moments than good ones.
Yes- I agree completely, in canon there are definitely more bad moments shown between John and Sam than good ones. My thinking is that there were reasons for this; to a) show the overall, historical contentious nature of their relationship and that b) it was a reflection of the time and circumstance-- the battle/search for the demon was heating up, Sam had an agenda for revenge and John was making that harder by hiding from the boys, while John had his own agenda for doing so and Sam wouldn't step-to and play good soldier to make things easier for John-- they really both had the same goals (mostly) but were at loggerheads about it. BUT, I do think that they also had a reason for showing the good stuff, so that we see that it wasn't all a hate-hate relationship between the two of them, and while they couldn't get along they still really love each other. I believe we can say, on all of this, that we agree.
(Incidentally, I take most of my beliefs about their relationship from canon but I do admit that there have been times when I refuse to believe Canon, that I think they got it wrong. After the first couple of seasons I had pretty much made up my mind about who was whom in this story, and if canon goes against that after the fact, I put my hands over my ears and sing LA LA LA LA very loudly. Case in point-- the whole extra son thing. I can absolutely buy that John would have a fling and a son someplace, and maybe, if I squint and try real hard, can believe that he would keep him a secret from Sam and Dean, because of the hunting, etc. I WILL NOT believe, and this is where I get petty and obsessive, that John would have TAKEN THE EXTRA BOY TO FUCKING BALL GAMES WHEN HE NEVER DID THAT FOR SAM AND DEAN. LOL. I know, right? But that just bugs the hell outa me. NO. JUST NO. My John Winchester was an obsessed, stubborn asshole, but he wasn't heartless. I just can't see it, and so I refuse to believe it. LMAO- so this is my disclaimer on rationality when it comes to these men.)
John did know that, I’m sure of it, so he was probably forgiving Sam even as they were yelling. -- I think that is what I was trying to say with the 'protecting' thing-- that John knew Sam was off the mark but was forgiving him anyway-- not holding this against Sam. I know, still fucked Sam up, but the fact that John *was* forgiving him was a tenderness he didn't have to show, and maybe wouldn't have if he didn't love Sam or if he weren't a good enough man. I was just using this as another example of John not being as complete an asshole as he *could* have been.
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Thread B
I think his name was Max. And I remember that scene well, at the end of the ep, because it’s what made me start thinking that stories like these would be possible, even probable.
Sam says, “A little more tequila, a little less demon hunting, and we would have had a childhood like Max’s.” And Dean says….nothing. Not a damn thing. So he’s not disagreeing, which to me means he’s agreeing with Sam that there’s a fine line between what John handed out and what Max’s dad handed out. And Max’s uncle too, as I recall. At least John would not have let someone else bash his kids around for the fun of it, that I do know.
At the same time, there’s an indication that John was quite severe with them, to the point of cruelty. But what I think what Sam is talking that kept them from being like Max. about is balance. The “little more tequila” indicates that John drank, maybe sometimes even too much, but never in a way that was out of control. “A little less hunting,” always says to me that hunting was John’s passion, yes, but also his outlet of frustration. That is, John was not the kind of parent to take his frustration out on his kids. Okay, maybe once or twice, but never to the point where his kids were afraid of them.
So yes, I agree with you, whatever John handed out, it was never enough to destroy the love between a father and son. It wasn’t abuse that John was doing, he wasn’t abusive, but he was stern, and yes severe, but he didn’t just hand it out because he was bored or because it amused him. However much Sam must have chafed under the lash, shall we say, in the back of his mind, I think he knew that whatever John was doing it was for a good reason, at least it was a good reason to John, even if it wasn’t to Sam, and it wasn’t because John gets off on pain. Whatever else John does that’s not right, he’s not a sadist.
And again, it's a question of perspective here and not that I don't LOVE THIS FIC, because I totally do because I'm twisted like that, but for me the picture you've drawn of this summer so far IS of the degree that it's actually emotionally abusive. Yes, Sam was upset at Dean's beating too, because Dean didn't really mean to push Sam through a window and get him cut up; he just meant to push Sam which is a much smaller infraction-- but there was no mediation of that. John's consequences are of the hammer-dropping variety, with no weighting of the evidence, it seems.
Of course it’s emotionally abusive! That’s part of the problem. There isn’t any mediation, it just comes down BAM, because that’s how John thinks it needs to be done. You screw up? You get punished, and then we move on. In John’s mind (in my mind anyway) John doesn’t see the need to brood or linger over it. That’s actually what a good parent does, they apply discipline and then it’s done. They don’t hate the child, they instead disapprove of the act. Which is what John does. Problem is, they’re an insular little group, so yes, John’s frustration with Sam comes through loud and clear. Plus, yeah, John is heavy handed, but then, there’s no one near to soften his thinking. He’s got a bit of tunnel vision going on.
As to perspective, a 100 years ago, what John is dishing out would have been par for the course…..
Thread C (Because LJ sucks!)
I think his name was Max. And I remember that scene well, at the end of the ep, because it’s what made me start thinking that stories like these would be possible, even probable.
Sam says, “A little more tequila, a little less demon hunting, and we would have had a childhood like Max’s.” And Dean says….nothing. Not a damn thing. So he’s not disagreeing, which to me means he’s agreeing with Sam that there’s a fine line between what John handed out and what Max’s dad handed out. And Max’s uncle too, as I recall. At least John would not have let someone else bash his kids around for the fun of it, that I do know.
At the same time, there’s an indication that John was quite severe with them, to the point of cruelty. But what I think what Sam is talking that kept them from being like Max. about is balance. The “little more tequila” indicates that John drank, maybe sometimes even too much, but never in a way that was out of control. “A little less hunting,” always says to me that hunting was John’s passion, yes, but also his outlet of frustration. That is, John was not the kind of parent to take his frustration out on his kids. Okay, maybe once or twice, but never to the point where his kids were afraid of them.
So yes, I agree with you, whatever John handed out, it was never enough to destroy the love between a father and son. It wasn’t abuse that John was doing, he wasn’t abusive, but he was stern, and yes severe, but he didn’t just hand it out because he was bored or because it amused him. However much Sam must have chafed under the lash, shall we say, in the back of his mind, I think he knew that whatever John was doing it was for a good reason, at least it was a good reason to John, even if it wasn’t to Sam, and it wasn’t because John gets off on pain. Whatever else John does that’s not right, he’s not a sadist.
Re: Thread C (Because LJ sucks!)
Sam says, “A little more tequila, a little less demon hunting, and we would have had a childhood like Max’s.” And Dean says….nothing. Not a damn thing. So he’s not disagreeing, which to me means he’s agreeing with Sam that there’s a fine line between what John handed out and what Max’s dad handed out.
Oooo! that's such a seminal scene, isn't it? I've seen so many stories written with that as a jumping-off point, and it's amazing the myriad forms that has taken, from Dean's silence indicating that he was *dis*agreeing because Dean *did* have that childhood and Sam just didn't know, to.. I don't know, all kinds of fic this moment has been fodder for. Which I think is great, and that's why fic is fictional, and people should be allowed to take license with whatever spin they want to on things.
Now, having said that- I myself came away with- I think- an only slightly different interpretation than you did. I agree that Dean was agreeing with Sam-- or at least not disagreeing. And I agree that it indicated that John was something of a drinker, and could have been a worse one. However, I read the "less demon hunting" as more of a positive thing-- that Sam himself was admitting that the demon hunting, in this case, was a positive thing. I didn't quite think of it as an outlet for John's frustration, but rather as a focus for him, and something to keep him from spiraling into the grief and destruction he could have from losing his wife.
I don't know-- maybe we're both saying the same thing different ways, but I think the difference may be that I don't see John having beat on demons to keep from beating on his sons-- but that having a purpose helped him keep his head, which I think is *slightly* different?
At the same time, there’s an indication that John was quite severe with them, to the point of cruelty.
And I guess this is where there's maybe more of a divide in what we saw. I don't think I get 'severity to the point of cruelty' from this line. What I get is that Sam is saying there was the *potential* for cruelty because of John's (maybe natural?) severity and stubbornness, (and like you said later, there was no one else there to soften his thinking or actions), and if he hadn't been a better man and/or had the focus of hunting, it could've gone that way.
Again, it's a question of perspective here-- but we agree on the outcome. John did have some balance, and he wasn't punishing with his kids just because he got off on it-- I think where we're seeing things differently is in the degree to which John dipped down on the 'bad' side of his scale.
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Thread D (because word limits suck!)
Of course it’s emotionally abusive! That’s part of the problem. There isn’t any mediation, it just comes down BAM, because that’s how John thinks it needs to be done. You screw up? You get punished, and then we move on. In John’s mind (in my mind anyway) John doesn’t see the need to brood or linger over it. That’s actually what a good parent does, they apply discipline and then it’s done. They don’t hate the child, they instead disapprove of the act. Which is what John does. Problem is, they’re an insular little group, so yes, John’s frustration with Sam comes through loud and clear. Plus, yeah, John is heavy handed, but then, there’s no one near to soften his thinking. He’s got a bit of tunnel vision going on.
As to perspective, a 100 years ago, what John is dishing out would have been par for the course…..
Re: Thread D (because word limits suck!)
Ahahaha! Whew! At least we can agree on that, and I'm not totally crazy! ;)
In John’s mind (in my mind anyway) John doesn’t see the need to brood or linger over it.
I think this too is a problem for Sam, because he seems the type of kid to *need* to brood over it-- or at least discuss it and talk it all out so everybody is on the same page and all grievances are aired. At least, that's how I see Sam. Juicy fodder for angst!!
As to perspective, a 100 years ago, what John is dishing out would have been par for the course….. -- Agreed. Also, with respect to perspective, this is closer or farther to 'par for the course' for some people even today, depending on what family you grew up in- I think that's more the perspective I was thinking of.
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Thread E
So what you’re saying is the punishments John hands out seem excessive and would seem to indicate that Sam and John’s lack of getting along would be worse than it actually is. Thus, what I’m doing now is overboard…right? Because it doesn’t logically lead to what we’re seeing, which is a relationship of sorts, isn’t it. What you’re saying (I think) that a Dad who was that severe wouldn’t have a son who loves him as much as Sam does John. So it couldn’t have been this bad. But then, who knows what lurks in the heart of a Winchester? Plus, among the badness, are these little islands of sweetness, and that in and of itself is enough to keep Sam close. A kind of intermittent conditioning, if you will, the strongest reinforcement known to man.
And the fact that you are treading that line, like you said, purposely showing John's intent--
[(and in a VERY clever way, may I say, where it's still through Sam's eyes but he can't see it, even though we can-- AWESOMENESS.) so that all the maltreatment is for John's reasons-- that whole Any weakness now will mean trouble for Sam later... I can't agree with that hard line even knowing why and that's what makes me so ANGRY at this John-- but I buy that he believes it.]
That was something fun that I stumbled on as to what I was doing. It wasn’t on purpose the first time, I think it was unconscious that John keeps trying to connect with Sam only Sam can’t see it. When I figured THAT out, I thought that’s what this story is about, at it’s heart. Sure the beatings are fun for me to write, but the story is about Sam and John not being able to really talk to one another, and for the bystander to be so very frustrated at that lack.
for me, *that's* what makes this so painful- that we do see John's intention and that keeps this from devolving into simplistic abuse-because-John-is-evil- because THAT would be easier to just write off and dismiss. DAMN YOU.
ANYWAY. Let me explain more about the otter pops-- and this will probably illustrate more fully where our disconnect may be (as well as my complete and utter fucked-upness where issues like this are concerned).
For (my) Sam, esp. at 12 years old, it's not about *getting* the ice cream and making a decision not to take it- making a point, whether he's old enough to understand it or not. [Which, btw, please, yes, steal away if it pleases you!!]
(I might, I just might : D
Re: Thread E
YES. :) That's what I'm saying. :P HOWEVER, perspective, individual differences, YMMV, creative license... etc ==>
But then, who knows what lurks in the heart of a Winchester?
INDEED. Indeed.
Plus, among the badness, are these little islands of sweetness, and that in and of itself is enough to keep Sam close. A kind of intermittent conditioning, if you will, the strongest reinforcement known to man.
And see *this*-- this is what I think it is about this fic that drives me crazy-- because I can see this as a valid motivational choice in a fic, but for *me personally*-- this kind of treatment from John would make me hate John all the more, because I would find it *confusing*. I would be too bitter from the mistreatment (because my GOD can I hold a grudge) for me to be able to get any relief or pleasure from the sweetness. Or at least, that's what I believe about myself. Luckily, I've never had the occasion to know.
Still, the idea of intermittent conditioning here, being rewarded occasionally for something you do right but never being able to predict when or how, is mixed up with the *unpredictable* outcome of punishment... which just muddies the waters considerably. That's why this is such an interesting question for me, how this whole mix of treatment would affect Sam's ultimate outcome. (And that's just if he were a 'normal' kid, let's not even get into losing his mother as a baby and living in an insular little band of three, much less having demon blood in him and a curse over his head.)
I think it was unconscious that John keeps trying to connect with Sam only Sam can’t see it. When I figured THAT out, I thought that’s what this story is about, at it’s heart... about Sam and John not being able to really talk to one another, and for the bystander to be so very frustrated at that lack.
YES. The bystander frustration is killing in this, but for me, I gotta tell ya, the haunting aspect of this fic is how very much John seems to go overboard with Sam-- the actual beatings and the actual emotionally abusive interactions which may have a different effect if they were toward a different kid but these seem tailor-made to traumatize Sam-- and the fact that Sam just keeps coming back for more (i.e., doesn't shut down) --- THAT is what sticks with me about this fic.
The fact that I can see John peeking through occasionally (when Sam can't), isn't enough for me to sympathize (much) with this John-- but then maybe we're not meant to.
Still, like I said earlier, without these little glimpses of the facts of John's intentions, it would be so much easier to compartmentalize and write this fic off as another John's-an-evil-abusive-bastard story (some of which can be quite good and have their own merit). NOT being able to write it off in that way, and just 'throw this John away' as it were, is what I find to be so absolutely frustrating and compelling about this story.
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Thread F (for the love of mike!)
Ooooh, ooh, I see what you’re saying now. John breaks him and Sam goes numb and starts doing just what he’s told.
*blinks* Wow. Told you I was fucked up and twisted.
(Believe me I know how you feel. I’ve been asking myself the same question for a LONG time: why on earth is this kind of stuff fun to read? I have no answers for you)
PLEASE NOT TO BE DOING THIS TO OUR SAM. But I know you won't anyway, because you like your Sam strong and too proud for his own good which I know WILL ONLY LEAD TO MORE TROUBLE AND NOOO!!! SEEEEE what you do to me?? You are giving me the worst of all possiblities here! Making John abusive but not (necessarily) evil, making Sam right but also a (somewhat spoiled) brat, and making Dean just distant (and non-sympathetic) enough to cause trouble.
No, absolutely not, I will not be doing this to our Sam. First, because that would be too mean, even for me. And because the Sam we see is more or less confident and sure of himself. And John doesn’t seem like the sort of father to push and push and push till it breaks. Max’s father was, but not John. And it wouldn’t be any fun to write about anymore. Sam would be a ghost and his head would be hanging down all the time, and I would just run out of ideas. So no! this will not be happening. (But I think you are also saying that if it gets much worse for Sam, you can SEE it happening and you don’t want it to!) I want to see the flash in Sam’s eyes as he tells John to FUCK OFF. Or at least the flash in Sam’s eyes as he THINKS about telling John to fuck off. And John, he’s like a mind reader, see, and he knows what Sam is thinking and…oh dear. Do you see how things can get darker from there? And how much FUN that is for me?
WHY? WHY MUST YOU DO THIS TO ME? AND HOW QUICKLY CAN YOU GET IT DONE AND POSTED?!
BECAUSE I AM TWISTED LIKE THAT!
I found my notes and dusted them off. I’m working on one right NOW.
Re: Thread F (for the love of mike!)
I'M gonna chalk it up to the same kind of catharsis one receives from watching a Shakespearean tragedy-- we can see someone else's pain so we don't have to experience our own. NOT because we're twisted and like to see Sam and Dean suffer... No, no.
Ooooh, ooh, I see what you’re saying now. John breaks him and Sam goes numb and starts doing just what he’s told... No, absolutely not, I will not be doing this to our Sam. First, because that would be too mean, even for me...
AND
And John doesn’t seem like the sort of father to push and push and push till it breaks... But I think you are also saying that if it gets much worse for Sam, you can SEE it happening and you don’t want it to!
YES!!! All true, except I would add that YOU may not be mean enough to do this to Sam, and THIS JOHN may not INTEND to do this to Sam-- but he's already just on that line for me of DESERVING this kind of Sam!!! Even though that doesn't do Sam justice at all-- at this point it's just about punishing John enough-- if there can't be any amelioration for Sam. Which I have already been told, I will not be getting. *pouts*
Even so...
I found my notes and dusted them off. I’m working on one right NOW.
I CANNOT. FUCKING. WAIT. !
Re: Thread F (for the love of mike!)
Re: Thread F (for the love of mike!)
Re: Thread F (for the love of mike!)
Re: Thread F (for the love of mike!)
Re: Thread F (for the love of mike!)
Re: Thread F (for the love of mike!)
Re: Thread F (for the love of mike!)
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