Can You Say Wow? I Knew That You Could

[lovesrain44]

This recently got posted at Fandom Secrets, which I check every day because it's so dang fun:



And I can say that I don't know when I have been as flattered as this.

Except for my friend amothea bugging me week in and week out, the stories never got a lot of feedback, so I really thought that the two of us were the only ones who liked them. That they were personal guilty pleasures only, and not....well, just not what people wanted. To find that there was at least one other person out there who also liked them, well.

I assure Anon, not at all pathetic, that I do have more stories in my head for this.

One thing I had to be sure of was to not back out of the contract I had set with myself, that John stayed John, and kept being the tough drill sergeant for the summer from hell. And that Dean and Sam remained true to the themselves in this era, somewhat at odds, not quite getting along. It's turned out to be harder than I had thought, to keep it edgy and mean. But I want to write them, I do. Writing Blue Skies took it out of me a bit, but the stories are most assuredly there. In my head.

Thank you again for the tremendous complement in being sad that there have been no updates in over a year. Over a year? I am sad too, now!

Edit: The stories did get a lot of feedback, and a lot of readers liked the darkness and the grit. I guess I always felt that since this verse was so personal to me that....oh, never mind. I'm not even sure what I'm saying now.  Foolish writer is foolish and should just write what feels good.

 

Comments

Re: Thread C (Because LJ sucks!)

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

... I remember that scene well, at the end of the ep, because it’s what made me start thinking that stories like these would be possible, even probable.

Sam says, “A little more tequila, a little less demon hunting, and we would have had a childhood like Max’s.” And Dean says….nothing. Not a damn thing. So he’s not disagreeing, which to me means he’s agreeing with Sam that there’s a fine line between what John handed out and what Max’s dad handed out.

Oooo! that's such a seminal scene, isn't it? I've seen so many stories written with that as a jumping-off point, and it's amazing the myriad forms that has taken, from Dean's silence indicating that he was *dis*agreeing because Dean *did* have that childhood and Sam just didn't know, to.. I don't know, all kinds of fic this moment has been fodder for. Which I think is great, and that's why fic is fictional, and people should be allowed to take license with whatever spin they want to on things.

Now, having said that- I myself came away with- I think- an only slightly different interpretation than you did. I agree that Dean was agreeing with Sam-- or at least not disagreeing. And I agree that it indicated that John was something of a drinker, and could have been a worse one. However, I read the "less demon hunting" as more of a positive thing-- that Sam himself was admitting that the demon hunting, in this case, was a positive thing. I didn't quite think of it as an outlet for John's frustration, but rather as a focus for him, and something to keep him from spiraling into the grief and destruction he could have from losing his wife.

I don't know-- maybe we're both saying the same thing different ways, but I think the difference may be that I don't see John having beat on demons to keep from beating on his sons-- but that having a purpose helped him keep his head, which I think is *slightly* different?

At the same time, there’s an indication that John was quite severe with them, to the point of cruelty.

And I guess this is where there's maybe more of a divide in what we saw. I don't think I get 'severity to the point of cruelty' from this line. What I get is that Sam is saying there was the *potential* for cruelty because of John's (maybe natural?) severity and stubbornness, (and like you said later, there was no one else there to soften his thinking or actions), and if he hadn't been a better man and/or had the focus of hunting, it could've gone that way.

Again, it's a question of perspective here-- but we agree on the outcome. John did have some balance, and he wasn't punishing with his kids just because he got off on it-- I think where we're seeing things differently is in the degree to which John dipped down on the 'bad' side of his scale.

Re: Thread C (Because LJ sucks!)

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think there was a story posted a little while ago where the premise was that Dean *did* have a childhood like Max's only Sam never knew. My friend amothea read it and said it wasn't very good - but I liked the idea of it. I guess there must be more stories out there about this issue and that particular scene (which is always fun to think about because the memories of their childhood are mixed, and also because I love hearing them reference it), but I've never read very many of them. Possibly because they either bordered on violence too far, or John was too gentle; there never seemed to be a realistic middle ground.

And yes, "less demon hunting" would mark Sam's approval, or at least mostly, and seems to say that he could see how it might have been a whole lot worse. But is there a difference between "outlet for frustration" and "a focus...to keep him from spiraling into grief" ? I think you are right when you say we are saying the same things but from different directions.
: D

Oh, I don't get "severity to the point of cruelty" from the line itself,
I'm totally extrapolating here, or maybe trying to justify or excuse the level to which I take things in this series. I shouldn't be apologetic but sometimes I feel bad or defensive or something, and just want to back off from the line I've drawn myself in the sand. It's hard to explain - but if a reader sees John as being cruel, I'm apt to agree, just to keep from having to explain why I don't think so. I'm giving it lipservice, I think. I don't think of John as cruel, but I do find it exciting to walk that very fine line between what people think is cruel and what I actually think John is doing.

And yes, Sam is talking about the potential for cruelty. Max's dad crossed the line and John never did. Ever.

Re: Thread C (Because LJ sucks!)

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

Now that I think about it, I may not have read a whole lot of stories discussing that scene, but maybe I'm just remembering seeing them posted and referencing it? Either way, I'm much more willing to read outside my comfort zone of what I believe was true of John, less so of the boys, and maybe that's because we see less of John so we *do* have to extrapolate. But I'm fine.. okay, well, I'm okay.. with John being too far on the violent side *or* too far on the gentle side, just for the sake of a good yarn (if I can otherwise enjoy it). I just simply write it off as AU.

And I don't mean that in a bad way, because I quite enjoy AU stuff. I concede, however, that the BEST and most enjoyable fics are those that tell a great story and you can believe every single bit would happen with the characters as you know them. That is a rare and wonderful feat. :)

Oh, I don't get "severity to the point of cruelty" from the line itself,
I'm totally extrapolating here,...

Ah, I see. And I can understand the desire to make your reasoning clear, but yeah, no, apologetic is not something that should be expected of any writer. I'm intrigued by this--

I don't think of John as cruel, but I do find it exciting to walk that very fine line between what people think is cruel and what I actually think John is doing.

-because if I remember correctly, you got quite a mixed bag of comments and opinions on John. I think the majority (again, if I am remembering right) kinda hated on this John and *did* think he was being cruel, but I also remember some readers commenting and pointing out little bits in John's favor, and being somewhat supportive of him in this overall fucked up situation. SO. Methinks you are walking that very fine line, my friend.

Now as for me, I'm 2/3rds in the camp that does think this John's actions have been to the point of cruelty, so I'm most intrigued by the "...and what I actually think John is doing" part. Hmmmmm.

*squints, taps chin and ponders*

Re: Thread C (Because LJ sucks!)

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

AU or not, true to canon or taking a different path, either way, if it's done well, I'm more likely to believe them. I so don't like it when it strays so far from any semblance of the characters I know (when it's just names attached to faces that *might* resemble Sam and Dean, but the resemblance ends there) because I agree with you, it's best when the writer gets it right, and their view matches mine. Then I feel like I'm watching/reading a heretofore undiscovered ep. : D

As for apologizing, sometimes I want to make the reader feel a little more comfortable. Some people read a story like this (and I've seen it said) they don't want to friend me because they don't want anyone else to know they like it. So if I express some discomfort myself, then they can feel better about pushing the envelope on their own comfort zone. See?

And yes, mixed bag of comments on John, and that's because of them feeling uncomfortable, like I said, pushing their own comfort zone, and not being able to admit that, yeah, John might be that much of a jerk sometimes. Of course, some of them disagree outright and that's fine too, each to their own. But sometimes, I can feel it when the hedge around the comment a little....and I want to help them open up to something that's maybe a little dark and uncomfortable that's already inside of them. I mean, I don't do this consciously, I'm not always that aware, it's just occurring to me now as I'm writing to you.

John is cruel, but he's not doing it for his amusement or for fun or because he's a sadist. In his mind, it's a war, and he needs to get his sons ready for that. As to the extent that the cruelty shows, it makes some people uncomfortable that he would have been like this, handing out beatings and saying nix to the otter pops. Heck, it makes me uncomfortable, but only because I have to guard myself on giving in to that huge push to be NICE, to have John be nice!

I've read a few stories where John is a jerk, and he hands out beatings, and then another and then another, and after a while, none of the beatings mean anything, and the reader gets inured to them. I know I do. Same with the kindness that you find in some stories, the John that is sweet and understanding and takes the time to explain things to Sam. Either way, too much of one and not the right amount of the other and the story turns to mush.