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This recently got posted at Fandom Secrets, which I check every day because it's so dang fun:
And I can say that I don't know when I have been as flattered as this.
Except for my friend![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
amothea bugging me week in and week out, the stories never got a lot of feedback, so I really thought that the two of us were the only ones who liked them. That they were personal guilty pleasures only, and not....well, just not what people wanted. To find that there was at least one other person out there who also liked them, well.
I assure Anon, not at all pathetic, that I do have more stories in my head for this.
One thing I had to be sure of was to not back out of the contract I had set with myself, that John stayed John, and kept being the tough drill sergeant for the summer from hell. And that Dean and Sam remained true to the themselves in this era, somewhat at odds, not quite getting along. It's turned out to be harder than I had thought, to keep it edgy and mean. But I want to write them, I do. Writing Blue Skies took it out of me a bit, but the stories are most assuredly there. In my head.
Thank you again for the tremendous complement in being sad that there have been no updates in over a year. Over a year? I am sad too, now!
Edit: The stories did get a lot of feedback, and a lot of readers liked the darkness and the grit. I guess I always felt that since this verse was so personal to me that....oh, never mind. I'm not even sure what I'm saying now. Foolish writer is foolish and should just write what feels good.
And I can say that I don't know when I have been as flattered as this.
Except for my friend
amothea bugging me week in and week out, the stories never got a lot of feedback, so I really thought that the two of us were the only ones who liked them. That they were personal guilty pleasures only, and not....well, just not what people wanted. To find that there was at least one other person out there who also liked them, well. I assure Anon, not at all pathetic, that I do have more stories in my head for this.
One thing I had to be sure of was to not back out of the contract I had set with myself, that John stayed John, and kept being the tough drill sergeant for the summer from hell. And that Dean and Sam remained true to the themselves in this era, somewhat at odds, not quite getting along. It's turned out to be harder than I had thought, to keep it edgy and mean. But I want to write them, I do. Writing Blue Skies took it out of me a bit, but the stories are most assuredly there. In my head.
Thank you again for the tremendous complement in being sad that there have been no updates in over a year. Over a year? I am sad too, now!
Edit: The stories did get a lot of feedback, and a lot of readers liked the darkness and the grit. I guess I always felt that since this verse was so personal to me that....oh, never mind. I'm not even sure what I'm saying now. Foolish writer is foolish and should just write what feels good.
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Of course, I understand your reasoning for --
It is an endless summer and the combination of cruelty that can (and will be) perpetrated on Sam will continue until further notice.
-- and heck, even if I *didn't*, it's still your fic and you can by-god write what you want!
I appreciate the fact that you kindly attributed my wish for Sam-amelioration to my kind and generous heart, when really, it just means I'm a big ol' weenie. :P I understand the intent, and that you're on *Sam's* side in this, and I respect the perspective you've taken for this fic. I just, and this is *entirely* attributable to the weenie aspect I mentioned, I like to believe in my behind-the-scenes canon world, that it wasn't quite *this* bad when they were growing up.
For this-
..proves his point that a) Sam had a rough childhood where no one understood him, b) his Dad was extra rough on him and, c) that Dean has completely different and happier memories and thusly has no sympathy for Sam.
I think that Sam and Dean did have different experiences because Dean was older and more willing to toe the line, but I don't (want to) believe that John was enough of a bastard to really treat them differently as far as holding them to different standards or always finding Sam lacking, or to physically beat them. (I really believe that that "Yes sir" kind of respect we saw in canon *can* be cultivated without actual browbeating. or ass-beating. :P) And I think that when it all finally came out and Dean would admit it, he can also see that they had a fucked up childhood, and so he does kind of have some sympathy for Sam, and maybe did then too even if he couldn't admit or express it. We saw enough tiny cracks of (or mentions of) caring between John and Sam in canon that it would have been doubtful for John to have been a *total* asshole when Sam was growing up. Either that, or Sam's much more forgiving than I could have been.
Maybe that's what kills me most about Sparta. If John is going to be this much of a total bastard toward him, I want Sam to *hate him*. But then, that's me and my own neuroses. Your mileage may vary, etc. ;)
Anyway. All of this is IRRELEVANT to your fic of awesomeness. I'm just explaining why I whimper and beg for Sam to get to be okay (and/or kill his father). Do with me (and Sam) as you will, oh wondrous one. I'll suffer gleefully, and just tell myself that in *my* SPN world, Sparta is AU. :D
and I'll gratefully lap up any hints of comfort thrown Sam's way.no subject
: D
It's interesting to see your perspective on John. I don't know if it was this bad for the boys... and I agree that any good father could get his son's respect without beating them, oh, yes. I know men like that, good men all, and they lead by example. But I like beating stories, you see...
I'm of two minds. One that John was this severe, and two that John's severity is because of Sam's perspective. For Dean, John wasn't too severe; he ate up everything John had to teach him and liked it. But for Sam, anything John did was over the top, too mean, horrible, and wrong. But it depends on your perspective, I think, so which is right?
I mean, he beats Sam in one story but in the other he beats Dean. Sam however, acts like he's equally upset by both beatings - because he feels guilty. For Sam, nothing John does was right.
I also think that John didn't treat them differently, and he should have. He seems to have the same standards for both (except in mileage and skill set - he doesn't seem to expect Sam to have the same stamina as Dean, for example) but he never seems to realize that Sam is a different type of boy, and if he explained things to Sam once in a while, he'd probably get a lot more cooperation out of him.
Whether Dean understands what was going on in canon (either in season 1 or season 5) I don't know. While it has come out that Dean understands his own Daddy issues (Dream a Little Dream, I think) it never seems to be part of the discussion what Sam remembers for himself.
Add to that, at this point, in the summer of 1995, Dean certainly wouldn't have had a lot of sympathy for Sam because Sam is messing it up for him. (I'm basing this on the comments Sam made in Bugs, where he and Dean talk about their childhoods for a moment or two.) So while Dean might have sympathy for Sam at some point, this summer in Mentone he doesn't.
I totally understand why you want the happy ending or the soft moment, and believe me, no one deserves it more than Sam! Even John deserves it, for the hell he went through. (I mean, can you imagine raising a kid like Sam???) And Dean deserves it for having to step between them so many times for so many years.
But not this summer. I am evil.
Your other interesting comment was that you felt it would be more appropriate (or reasonable) if Sam hated John. I know so many people who were abused/beaten/molested by parental figures (mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, grandparents) and for whatever reason, they don't seem to hate them. At least, they're not telling me, or expressing that hate to me. it might be the Stockholm Syndrome, or it might be that memory hides the most harsh things, or I don't know. But I've seen it happen, so I think it's reasonable for Sam to be hate-less.
Sure, he gets angry, and it's a passionate anger, but it doesn't seem like enough for patricide. At the same time, what I love about Sam (love, love, love) is that he's not afraid of John. Some trepidation when he's in the dog house, but no real fear, no cowering in the corner. Except that one time, when John was taking out a pair of scissors to cut off the bandage, but Sam was doped up with painkillers and everything was out of whack.
So you won't get your resolution, sad to say, but there will be ice cream, I promise. Sam loves ice cream. John knows this, at least.
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Please understand- (especially with THIS FIC, because what is it? magic?) that all my whining doesn't mean I don't LOVE THE FIC, and the artistry of it, it's just not what I waaaaaaant!!! Which you obviously understand, but I still can't help whining. This is not to be construed as a request to change anything. I'm just incapable of suffering in silence. :P
I absolutely get what you mean about Sam being a different kid, and if John would just approach him differently and *explain* things to Sam, the road would be a whole lot easier for all of them (after all John has reasonable reasons too, for the training, etc). I think what I was saying about Dean finally getting some sort of perspective about Sam- and maybe I'm over-informing the scene- was from when Sam and Dean went separate ways for Sam to go find John (season 1 maybe?, don't remember ep), and Dean was telling him on the phone how he was actually proud of Sam that Sam was able to stand up to John and sort of "go his own way", i.e. not just follow orders but do what he needed to satisfy his own agenda... and Dean maybe even alluded to if he'd had that kind of strength...
Anyway, I agree that things would've been easier for Dean altogether if Sam hadn't been there to complain but I also think as much as Dean was gung-ho about the hunting, a part of him also had to see how much John's expectations and treatment were fucked up -even toward Dean (striga, anyone?). But again, like you said, maybe not THIS summer. :P
On the wanting Sam to hate John- I readily admit that's from the perspective of seeing it through my own issues about underdogs and abuse. It's not at all healthy or adaptive, but this is my warped reasoning-- I want Sam to hate John or be broken enough not to forgive him because that would serve John right-- I know it's not what's best for Sam, because what's best for Sam is that he's strong enough to, like you say, not be afraid of John and continue to stand up for himself even when that's NOT the smartest thing to do (or in some cases even appropriate-- "If you weren't."!) It's best for Sam if he can survive this intact even through all the suffering. I guess that's where my willingness to torture Sam comes in- to allow him to be messed up just as a comeuppance to John. Again, my issues.
DOESN'T MATTER. I'm just excited as all hell that you're having thinky thoughts about this story again!! I swear, I'm along for the ride whatever you and Sam and John throw our way!
And at least I know Sam and I can count on ice cream.
Even if the dark and twisted part of me wants Sam to stop liking ice cream, just on principle. :P;)no subject
I love that and I might just steal it, okay?
And yes, whine and kick all you want, it just isn't happening. Though it is tempting, once in a while, to just give into that impulse (which I have too, believe me) to just make it nice, give it some kind of resolution. But even if I want to, and perhaps even John wants to from time to time (especially when Sam is looking particularly pathetic) he can't let himself. Any weakness now will mean trouble for Sam later. So what John would do (hold the line, be tough, see it through) is what I would do. What I must do.
I was thinking about this last night, you had pointed out the moment of closeness between Sam and John (when they were discussing what had happened to Sam's college fund) to prove the point that there was affection amongst the respect. I liked that moment, I really did. Such nice smiles on such handsome men. Then there's the moment that Sam discovers John on the floor d-e-a-d, and everything turns slow-mo, and Sam's howling like a lost pup. Those are two really good close moments that show that there is love between these two.
But are they enough to overcome the slew of scenes, the shouting match in the hospital, the argument in the car ("If you'd have shot that damn thing..." etc.), the smack down in the vampire episode - every time these guys get together, there's sparks. And even when John's not there, Sam's got scathing comments and remarks, because the two of them never got along. (And sometimes, as we know, Dad just wasn't there, not even for Christmas.)
So. In my mind, that had to start somewhere, that the relationship of a battle of wits was bred in the bone. If I were smart, like Charlie Eppes, I could give you the math to prove the ratio of balance between love and aggression. So let's say 90% aggression and 100% love - except only 10% of the love shows. : D
I think Sam has already served John right because Sam didn't forgive John up till the day he died. The last words between them were angry ones - so in John's mind, Sam hates him. So I think that part came true, sadly. Even if Sam now regrets it. What I'm enjoying about Sam's storyarc is that he is, in effect becoming like John, with all that tunnel vision and revenge stuff. It's just yummy.
I think you're right about Dean understanding Sam a little, going his own way and all that. But most of the time I think Dean represses negative feelings about John, and doesn't like to be reminded by Sam. But that's just me.
And ditto on wanting Sam to continue to be brave. Sam will continue to smart mouth back, and stand his ground, and make a mess for himself. The hard part will be not to have the whole idea tumble into mere abuse; John's got his motivations for being so hard on Sam, and hopefully I can keep it that way.
So here's a question for you...otter pops for Sam or no?
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YES!!! For god's sake, yes, give the child some otter pops!! LOL Any little bit we can have... (but I'll say more on that later...)
And secondly, Yay!! I made you laugh. :)
NOW, down to business-- it is SO cool to see our different perspectives on John in this too-- it's funny, but the two moments you mentioned weren't even ones I had in mind when I talked about the hints of caring between them-- I was thinking of two different scenes altogether-- well, those and the overall feeling I had gotten from all of them meshed together.
I was thinking of when they finally met again, and how Sam was worried whether John even wanted to see him; it was awkward and arms-length at first, but I read this as both of them *wanting* to greet each other, and being unsure of the other's reaction. Then we finally got the hug between them later in the scene.
The other time was, oddly enough, not between them but from a third person, when the guy who had called for Dean and John (sorry, I'm horrible at remembering which eps have which events) and Sam and Dean went to help, and the guy said 'well, both sons are just as good' and cavalierly mentioned how John had bragged about Sam being at Stanford on a full ride, and Sam had this 'aw, really?' kind of moment.
So, altogether I have this kind of belief that Sam and John really *did* care about each other, and although they obviously weren't afraid to go toe-to-toe over things (all the other slew of scenes of aggression you mention), I think there wasn't any real *permanent* damage of the I-really-hate-you kind, and that their real downfall, between the two of them, was their inability to communicate (because they were so much alike). They lacked the kind of, 'I love you, you asshole', ability that Sam and Dean seem to (depending on the season you consider) naturally have.
Even when John died and Sam felt guilty because his last words were in anger-- even then, John *knew* that Sam's anger was displaced- and John still 'took the heat' and didn't correct Sam's thinking even though he was being wrongly accused of not giving a shit about Dean. This was in a sense (even tho it was in a fucked-up, John way) sort of John being protective of Sam, by not calling him on wrongly accusing John. As it turns out, made things even worse for Sam in the end, but I didn't see that as John's *intent*...
(Alternatively, one could read that as John just not giving a shit enough to correct Sam, and being so focused on 'getting the job done' that he couldn't allow Sam enough information to sway him from that... and damn whatever it does to Sam in the process... but I don't want tooooo :P)
part 2 :P
And again, it's a question of perspective here and not that I don't LOVE THIS FIC, because I totally do because I'm twisted like that, but for me the picture you've drawn of this summer so far IS of the degree that it's actually emotionally abusive. Yes, Sam was upset at Dean's beating too, because Dean didn't really mean to push Sam through a window and get him cut up; he just meant to push Sam which is a much smaller infraction-- but there was no mediation of that. John's consequences are of the hammer-dropping variety, with no weighting of the evidence, it seems.
I can still see that John has reasons for what he does, but the fact that they're unreasonable actions-- I dunno. It's a matter of degrees, I think. For me, the amount of unreasonableness of imposition of will shown by John here does not equate to the amount of fucked-upness of their later relationship in canon, so I'm not satisfied that this John really gets his just desserts by that alone.
And the fact that you are treading that line, like you said, purposely showing John's intent--
[(and in a VERY clever way, may I say, where it's still through Sam's eyes but he can't see it, even though we can-- AWESOMENESS.) so that all the maltreatment is for John's reasons-- that whole Any weakness now will mean trouble for Sam later... I can't agree with that hard line even knowing why and that's what makes me so ANGRY at this John-- but I buy that he believes it.]
--for me, *that's* what makes this so painful- that we do see John's intention and that keeps this from devolving into simplistic abuse-because-John-is-evil-- because THAT would be easier to just write off and dismiss. DAMN YOU.
ANYWAY. Let me explain more about the otter pops-- and this will probably illustrate more fully where our disconnect may be (as well as my complete and utter fucked-upness where issues like this are concerned).
For (my) Sam, esp. at 12 years old, it's not about *getting* the ice cream and making a decision not to take it- making a point, whether he's old enough to understand it or not. [Which, btw, please, yes, steal away if it pleases you!!] No, no. My twistedness goes further than that. MY fucked up Sam would be so completely over and done with all the bullshit and BROK.EN. to the point that he actually would not get any enjoyment out of the ice cream. He would take it or not, whatever the 'order' of the moment was, but just be at a point beyond which John could affect him any more; and even if this John were too far beyond the pale for *that* to have any impact on him, at least Sam would be (in a sad, fucked-up, unhealthy way) beyond his reach. And yeah, that's not the Sam we see in canon. But it's the one I see this John deserving.
*blinks* Wow. Told you I was fucked up and twisted.
PLEASE NOT TO BE DOING THIS TO OUR SAM. But I know you won't anyway, because you like your Sam strong and too proud for his own good which I know WILL ONLY LEAD TO MORE TROUBLE AND NOOOOOO!!!!! SEEEEE what you do to me?? You are giving me the worst of all possiblities here! Making John abusive but not (necessarily) evil, making Sam right but also a (somewhat spoiled) brat, and making Dean just distant (and non-sympathetic) enough to cause trouble.
WHY?? WHY MUST YOU DO THIS TO ME??? AND HOW QUICKLY CAN YOU GET IT DONE AND POSTED?!?!!??? :P
Re: part 2 :P
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