I voted for pre-series because my perverted mind likes to belieeeeeeeeve it. *eg*
No, srsly, by the time Sam left for Stanford, he was, you know, EIGHTEEN. Mostly kinda grown, and out of the annoy-your-brother stage. Well, almost. Anyhow, I daydream think that because they were so close, living in each other's pockets, not having any (or very few) other *constant* relationships outside their little triad-- and the fact that they are both smokin hot-- means yeah, they got busy before Sam left for college.
I dunno. I just kind of like the idea that Sam was always a little bit in love with his big brother. :) And that Dean always loved Sam more than life, and once Sam got old enough to be seen as sexy (by whatever standard one might view for that), that Dean started to see him that way too (even tho he was riddled with guilt, natch)... that may be squicky for some people, I know. But that's my fav wincest story.
If I had to pick an episode? It'd be the one where Dean and Sam have the conversation in the hotel room when they've just reunited with Dad, and Sam talks about things almost being over, and him going back to school- and Dean's all 'it'll never be over, Sam'- and how he wants them to be a family again- and "Why do you think I drag you all over the country Sammy?"-- yeah. Dean is just so-- wincesty right there. Even tho Sam sticks to his guns, Sam had to think it over and go and comfort Dean right? Right? :P
Oooh, I love answsers like this! And the links too, thank you!
So you're saying the wincest happened later during the pre series time, rather than earlier. So like...16 for Sam?
I like your theory that Sam was always a little bit in love with Dean - and of course, yes, Dean, there's nothing he wouldn't do for Sam. What I like about this pairing, regardless of the age, is that each of them comes equipped with not only a whole lot of baggage, plus that baggage is different, but each of them is as vulnerable to the other. Except for Evil!Sam stories, where Sam's control and darkness makes sense, most stories I read have them unbending to each other, once they get started they don't hold back. THere's a lot of love there, even if it is squicky. : D
As for the EP you pick? That has ALWAYS been one of my favorite scenes, Wincesty to the max, because Dean is coming clean here, he's opening up. Only I don't think Sam realizes how rare this is and is going to be. So I don't think the wincest happened THEN, however, it was certainly a starting point....
Yes to the pre series time, don't know whether I'd say later in pre series. Altho part of my argument was that Sam was grown up by the time he left, (meaning it *must* have happened by then..) I really like the idea that it started as soon as Sam became interested in sex- cause he'd be like- 'whoa, my brother's hot' and Dean would be- 'thank god, finally i'm not the only one'. (This of course being possible/necessary due to all the arguments we normally make about them already being warped.)
So for me, not that this is what I *believe* but what I *prefer* to think-- is that it started at Sam's sexual awakening, which, you know, that age would depend on each person's own discretion. For me, it's about 1213 14. *eg*
Or at least, maybe, shortly thereafter, to give big brother some time to wrestle with his demons over it. (And lose.)
The first link I sent you, for drusilla's fic? That has an excellent depiction of the sort of thing I mean here. They were already too too close, and as soon as Sam follows Dean into sexual awareness, oh, it's on. :P
Yes, yes! to their baggage and vulnerability to each other. It's a goldmine of pervy goodness, just waiting to be plundered.
Yeah, and for that ep- I don't actually think that would be where it started- only wishful thinking on my part that Sam would see reason and go seduce his brother. :P He was much too involved in his own issues at the time, but I couldn't resist pointing to it as one of the earliest, for me, definitive wincesty points. (The other one? Sam has Dean up against the wall, and Dean saying the "..you, me and Dad. It's all we have.. it's all I have..." line-- OMG GUH Eleventy!!!! I love his voice there- how broken he sounds in that line. *is sick and twisted*
So yeah, maybe I was just projecting and telling you when the Wincest started for *me*. :)
I love that scene too – not only are their bodies close, but Dean’s all wide open like he is, and, yeah, Sam is fisting Dean’s shirt and they’re both so damn worked up. It’s almost a gimme here. I’ve not seen very many fics dealing with that scene as a jumping off point, but maybe it’s so obvious there doesn’t need to be fic?
Once, long ago, I raised the question as to why people always had Sam initiating the sex – like you present here, it was Sam’s awakening that brought Wincest to the fore, and not Dean. Why wouldn’t Dean initiate, I asked, naively. Well, it was explained to me, Dean’s in the protection role and would never ever cross that line, even if he wanted to, even if Sam begged. I’ve come to see the light and reason of this, esp after looking at Dean’s character for three plus seasons. Even if he wanted it, Dean would never…ever…well, he does sometimes (in fic) but then he always regrets it, beats himself up, pushes Sam away.
I’ve yet to read the Drusilla fic, but I’m hoping to get to it today. This question of when and how is FAR too interesting. I’ve barely gotten any work done!
I agree with you on voting for n1, though sometimes I think they might have started fooling around but never gotten to actual sex until farther down the road. I can also see the whole Dean believing it's wrong thing coming into play and being the reason, or partly, that they never fully consummated their epic love. (Sorry, I HAD TO USE THAT LINE x_x)
I agree that Sammy's also always been a little in love with Dean. Maybe he didn't realise just HOW MUCH until Dean left? Though, that would clash with my personal canon of a hook-up before Sam went to college.
IDK, just some thoughts. Thanks for the fic links, though.
I see what you mean about them waiting until later. I guess it's all in your definition of 'actual sex'. To me, any sexual contact, (fooling around, kissing..) still crosses that line into wincest.
As for when they 'fully consummated their epic love' (heh!)- depending on your definition of that- do you mean the first time somebody gets off? or "all the way" penetrative sex? Cause in my opinion, if somebody's gettin' off, it's sex. :P
(And if nobody *was* gettin' off, then damn, Dean, you're just a tease!)
I just love the idea of young Sam being infatuated with his big brother, even when he's a jerk. (and it's *so obvious* he still is! *squee*!)
You're very welcome for the links! They are a couple of my absolute favorites, and I hope you enjoy. :) ps- i love your name!
I do think of fooling around and the romantic aspect as Wincest, but when I say 'actual sex' or talk about the *cough* consummation of their epic love, I'm thinking full-on penetrative sex. The question was asking when the sex happened as opposed to the more general question of when WINCEST happened. hmm...
(Oh, Dean, he'll tease and tease and then, just when you're about to give up on him, will give you everything you ever wanted. *nods enthusiastically*)
I think Sam always loved his brother and then later on realised that it wasn't brotherly love and that he was *in love* with Dean. IDK, Sammich always seemed to me the one who would realise it first. LOL at Dean the jerk. It's part of his charm!
Yeah, The Velveteen Rabbit was one of my fave stories as a child. I'm representing for all the rabbits out there! :P
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No, srsly, by the time Sam left for Stanford, he was, you know, EIGHTEEN. Mostly kinda grown, and out of the annoy-your-brother stage. Well, almost. Anyhow, I
daydreamthink that because they were so close, living in each other's pockets, not having any (or very few) other *constant* relationships outside their little triad-- and the fact that they are both smokin hot-- means yeah, they got busy before Sam left for college.I dunno. I just kind of like the idea that Sam was always a little bit in love with his big brother. :) And that Dean always loved Sam more than life, and once Sam got old enough to be seen as sexy (by whatever standard one might view for that), that Dean started to see him that way too (even tho he was riddled with guilt, natch)... that may be squicky for some people, I know. But that's my fav wincest story.
If I had to pick an episode? It'd be the one where Dean and Sam have the conversation in the hotel room when they've just reunited with Dad, and Sam talks about things almost being over, and him going back to school- and Dean's all 'it'll never be over, Sam'- and how he wants them to be a family again- and "Why do you think I drag you all over the country Sammy?"-- yeah. Dean is just so-- wincesty right there. Even tho Sam sticks to his guns, Sam had to think it over and go and comfort Dean right? Right? :P
Oh! And here's my link - exhibits A and B ;)
http://drvsilla.livejournal.com/11245.html - "Fix(ation)"
http://shea-fleur.livejournal.com/69706.html#cutid1 - "Trust Me"
no subject
So you're saying the wincest happened later during the pre series time, rather than earlier. So like...16 for Sam?
I like your theory that Sam was always a little bit in love with Dean - and of course, yes, Dean, there's nothing he wouldn't do for Sam. What I like about this pairing, regardless of the age, is that each of them comes equipped with not only a whole lot of baggage, plus that baggage is different, but each of them is as vulnerable to the other. Except for Evil!Sam stories, where Sam's control and darkness makes sense, most stories I read have them unbending to each other, once they get started they don't hold back. THere's a lot of love there, even if it is squicky. : D
As for the EP you pick? That has ALWAYS been one of my favorite scenes, Wincesty to the max, because Dean is coming clean here, he's opening up. Only I don't think Sam realizes how rare this is and is going to be. So I don't think the wincest happened THEN, however, it was certainly a starting point....
no subject
Yes to the pre series time, don't know whether I'd say later in pre series. Altho part of my argument was that Sam was grown up by the time he left, (meaning it *must* have happened by then..) I really like the idea that it started as soon as Sam became interested in sex- cause he'd be like- 'whoa, my brother's hot' and Dean would be- 'thank god, finally i'm not the only one'. (This of course being possible/necessary due to all the arguments we normally make about them already being warped.)
So for me, not that this is what I *believe* but what I *prefer* to think-- is that it started at Sam's sexual awakening, which, you know, that age would depend on each person's own discretion. For me, it's about
121314. *eg*Or at least, maybe, shortly thereafter, to give big brother some time to wrestle with his demons over it. (And lose.)
The first link I sent you, for drusilla's fic? That has an excellent depiction of the sort of thing I mean here. They were already too too close, and as soon as Sam follows Dean into sexual awareness, oh, it's on. :P
Yes, yes! to their baggage and vulnerability to each other. It's a goldmine of pervy goodness, just waiting to be plundered.
Yeah, and for that ep- I don't actually think that would be where it started- only wishful thinking on my part that Sam would see reason and go seduce his brother. :P He was much too involved in his own issues at the time, but I couldn't resist pointing to it as one of the earliest, for me, definitive wincesty points. (The other one? Sam has Dean up against the wall, and Dean saying the "..you, me and Dad. It's all we have.. it's all I have..." line-- OMG GUH Eleventy!!!! I love his voice there- how broken he sounds in that line. *is sick and twisted*
So yeah, maybe I was just projecting and telling you when the Wincest started for *me*. :)
no subject
Once, long ago, I raised the question as to why people always had Sam initiating the sex – like you present here, it was Sam’s awakening that brought Wincest to the fore, and not Dean. Why wouldn’t Dean initiate, I asked, naively. Well, it was explained to me, Dean’s in the protection role and would never ever cross that line, even if he wanted to, even if Sam begged. I’ve come to see the light and reason of this, esp after looking at Dean’s character for three plus seasons. Even if he wanted it, Dean would never…ever…well, he does sometimes (in fic) but then he always regrets it, beats himself up, pushes Sam away.
I’ve yet to read the Drusilla fic, but I’m hoping to get to it today. This question of when and how is FAR too interesting. I’ve barely gotten any work done!
no subject
I agree that Sammy's also always been a little in love with Dean. Maybe he didn't realise just HOW MUCH until Dean left? Though, that would clash with my personal canon of a hook-up before Sam went to college.
IDK, just some thoughts. Thanks for the fic links, though.
no subject
As for when they 'fully consummated their epic love' (heh!)- depending on your definition of that- do you mean the first time somebody gets off? or "all the way" penetrative sex? Cause in my opinion, if somebody's gettin' off, it's sex. :P
(And if nobody *was* gettin' off, then damn, Dean, you're just a tease!)
I just love the idea of young Sam being infatuated with his big brother, even when he's a jerk. (and it's *so obvious* he still is! *squee*!)
You're very welcome for the links! They are a couple of my absolute favorites, and I hope you enjoy. :) ps- i love your name!
no subject
(Oh, Dean, he'll tease and tease and then, just when you're about to give up on him, will give you everything you ever wanted. *nods enthusiastically*)
I think Sam always loved his brother and then later on realised that it wasn't brotherly love and that he was *in love* with Dean. IDK, Sammich always seemed to me the one who would realise it first. LOL at Dean the jerk. It's part of his charm!
Yeah, The Velveteen Rabbit was one of my fave stories as a child. I'm representing for all the rabbits out there! :P
p.s. I'm totally friending you! :)