Thanks! I've made my roommate and sister listen to them countless times, so they're pretty well thought out by now!
After I saw CSPTDT the first time, I immediately had to rewatch it, just to make sure that that scene really did point invariably to sex (which it totally does.) Any point after this in the series, Wincest becomes plausible to me.
I think that eventually they'd have to deal with the desperation-in-the-dark fucks, with Sam probably bringing up the subject and Dean being all awkward. Regardless of how they get to the sex, I definitely think it would be a "fuck first, ask questions later" deal.
4 is amazingly tragic, and I agree that it's better to assume no romantic love between them than a love that will never go anywhere. At the same time, part of me sees Dean as being very good at blocking things out and compartmentalizing his mind, and very reluctant to do anything that he sees as damaging to Sam. Since Sam is a character who is pretty much defined by both his self-imposed guilt and by the things that he can't or couldn't do, I can also see him trying to just push it aside as yet another failure in his life. Wow, now I'm going to sit in the corner and cry because I've depressed myself!
The scene in CSPWDT? On the mountain? I don't see it as happening then, I see it as already having happened/or about to happen in the scene where Sam is drunk and making grabby hands at Dean. This is proof in my mind that Sam has already brought up the subject, and wants Dean, and Dean knows this, and when Sam gets all relaxed, Dean slaps his hands away without much comment. He knows what Sam wants here and isn't going to give in. Yet. And certainly not to a drunk Sam.
(My favorite theory of yours is the 1st one, then the 3rd one.)
In Playthings? Yeah, if you watch that episode as a new viewer (which I did when I first started watching, I had only seen one ep before that, Hunted), the subtext practically slaps you upside the head. From a literary criticism point of view, all of Sam's destiny and demon blood angst could be read as him being in love with Dean and being ashamed of it (especially when he says things like, "There's this thing inside of me that I can't control" or "This blood, it's not in you like it's in me").
On the scene in CSPWDT, my feeling is that post-Stanford Wincest isn't very feasible BEFORE that scene, but begins to be more and more possible in the episodes that follow. I suppose what I mean is that I can't really suspend my disbelief very well to read codas or missing scenes that involve sex that would have taken place in episodes before CSPWDT, but it's just a matter of time (and personal preference) as to when the sex starts after that point. I think John as a controlling, prohibitive force in their lives has to be dealt with before any fucking.
Okay...are these two different eps? Confused now...thought I was thinking oof them as the same one!
Playthings - the one with the grandma in the attic, and Dean and Sam are considered to be antiquers...and the grabby hands, yes, subtext and upside the head wincest.
Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things (I had to look it up) the zombie ep where there is the mountain scene at the end, and the mantear of pain.
My bad for the confusion. : D
I agree totally and reckon than you voted with me on this one, it's more feasible for them to get together after John died. Not just because of him being there and being all bossy, but he's a very strong element in their lives even when he's not around. I've thought this for ages. Although I like stories where John's in the next room (the whole chance of discovery thing is rather fun) I don't buy it because I don't think that they'd risk it or even consider it because the John we've seen would kill them both, or beat the crap out of them, or something - he'd be SO angry, and it would destroy him to find out. So, no. Dean would never risk doing that to John.
My current favorite theory is that when they were kids, out of lonliness and to give solice to each other, they might have fooled around, then it stopped as they got older, (was that black cloud you were talking about in your other post), Sam went away (which I personally think had nothing to do with the sex), then Sam came back, and the memory of fooling around got sublimated for hunting for John. THEN John died and all they had was each other and thusly the wincest begins. (Barring any hero worship crush Sam might have had on Dean for ages...but no action was taking with purpose aforethought until John died.
No problem for the confusion, it's only through strict training that I can keep all the titles straight myself!
I really agree with your thoughts about John. I'm in a literary theory class right now and we've talked about the Freudian "internal rule of the father", where the rules imposed by a father figure (an actual father, a political leader, an influential writer, etc.) become internalized subconsciously, making him larger than life and making him influential even when he isn't physically there. I think this really applies in SPN because the boys have always and will always be influenced by John and the way that he taught them to live.
That theory has a lot in common with actual accounts of sibling incest, where the siblings are drawn together because they're socially isolated and are neglected by their parents. I also agree that once they were all alone again and both began actively disagreeing with things that John had told them, Wincest can happen.
I'm pretty good with titles most of the time, but get confused with the initials, which throws me off pretty fiercly.
I've heard about the theory you mention, but it's been a while, so thank you for reminding me of it - porn is fun, pwp is fun, but no way on this earth would Dean risk it. Sam might...he might try to coerce Dean, but Dean would hold strong. Esp if John is in the next room, the whole Freudian theory was written to describe DEAN! (Less so with Sam, though John does loom large in Sam's brain, but in a different way. Remember what he drunkenly said to Dean? "Dad told you to do it, you HAVE to!" Because even if John isn't as influential to Sam, Sam knows the power Dad holds over Dean.)
I've also heard another contrasting theory, that siblings raised together, even if they're not related, almost can't commit incest. Have you heard of that one? Because it makes me wonder if contrasting theory is true, then what would be the overriding element to bring the boys towards Wincest? (Must find theory...)
I should really be writing a paper for class right now, but a quick reply to your last point: I think that's called the Westermark effect (sp?), and it applies to any children raised together (like kids in orphanages, etc.) but sibling incest DOES happen, especially as sex play between children. This isn't something that I've looked into much, but I know that one of my fannish friends has, because she's a big psychology nerd like that. XD I actually think that she's working on a post for angstybromance based on some of her research, so keep an eye out for it.
Excellent, thank you! Yeah, the Westmark effect, which would normally be in effect, was overthrown by the intensity of the boys circumstance. I'll look forward to that post, and will probably link to it so everyone can have a gander. : D
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After I saw CSPTDT the first time, I immediately had to rewatch it, just to make sure that that scene really did point invariably to sex (which it totally does.) Any point after this in the series, Wincest becomes plausible to me.
I think that eventually they'd have to deal with the desperation-in-the-dark fucks, with Sam probably bringing up the subject and Dean being all awkward. Regardless of how they get to the sex, I definitely think it would be a "fuck first, ask questions later" deal.
4 is amazingly tragic, and I agree that it's better to assume no romantic love between them than a love that will never go anywhere. At the same time, part of me sees Dean as being very good at blocking things out and compartmentalizing his mind, and very reluctant to do anything that he sees as damaging to Sam. Since Sam is a character who is pretty much defined by both his self-imposed guilt and by the things that he can't or couldn't do, I can also see him trying to just push it aside as yet another failure in his life. Wow, now I'm going to sit in the corner and cry because I've depressed myself!
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No good can come from this. But somebody should write it anyway.
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(My favorite theory of yours is the 1st one, then the 3rd one.)
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On the scene in CSPWDT, my feeling is that post-Stanford Wincest isn't very feasible BEFORE that scene, but begins to be more and more possible in the episodes that follow. I suppose what I mean is that I can't really suspend my disbelief very well to read codas or missing scenes that involve sex that would have taken place in episodes before CSPWDT, but it's just a matter of time (and personal preference) as to when the sex starts after that point. I think John as a controlling, prohibitive force in their lives has to be dealt with before any fucking.
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Playthings - the one with the grandma in the attic, and Dean and Sam are considered to be antiquers...and the grabby hands, yes, subtext and upside the head wincest.
Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things (I had to look it up) the zombie ep where there is the mountain scene at the end, and the mantear of pain.
My bad for the confusion. : D
I agree totally and reckon than you voted with me on this one, it's more feasible for them to get together after John died. Not just because of him being there and being all bossy, but he's a very strong element in their lives even when he's not around. I've thought this for ages. Although I like stories where John's in the next room (the whole chance of discovery thing is rather fun) I don't buy it because I don't think that they'd risk it or even consider it because the John we've seen would kill them both, or beat the crap out of them, or something - he'd be SO angry, and it would destroy him to find out. So, no. Dean would never risk doing that to John.
My current favorite theory is that when they were kids, out of lonliness and to give solice to each other, they might have fooled around, then it stopped as they got older, (was that black cloud you were talking about in your other post), Sam went away (which I personally think had nothing to do with the sex), then Sam came back, and the memory of fooling around got sublimated for hunting for John. THEN John died and all they had was each other and thusly the wincest begins. (Barring any hero worship crush Sam might have had on Dean for ages...but no action was taking with purpose aforethought until John died.
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I really agree with your thoughts about John. I'm in a literary theory class right now and we've talked about the Freudian "internal rule of the father", where the rules imposed by a father figure (an actual father, a political leader, an influential writer, etc.) become internalized subconsciously, making him larger than life and making him influential even when he isn't physically there. I think this really applies in SPN because the boys have always and will always be influenced by John and the way that he taught them to live.
That theory has a lot in common with actual accounts of sibling incest, where the siblings are drawn together because they're socially isolated and are neglected by their parents. I also agree that once they were all alone again and both began actively disagreeing with things that John had told them, Wincest can happen.
Our discussion has been made of win. ^_^ Friend?
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I'm pretty good with titles most of the time, but get confused with the initials, which throws me off pretty fiercly.
I've heard about the theory you mention, but it's been a while, so thank you for reminding me of it - porn is fun, pwp is fun, but no way on this earth would Dean risk it. Sam might...he might try to coerce Dean, but Dean would hold strong. Esp if John is in the next room, the whole Freudian theory was written to describe DEAN! (Less so with Sam, though John does loom large in Sam's brain, but in a different way. Remember what he drunkenly said to Dean? "Dad told you to do it, you HAVE to!" Because even if John isn't as influential to Sam, Sam knows the power Dad holds over Dean.)
I've also heard another contrasting theory, that siblings raised together, even if they're not related, almost can't commit incest. Have you heard of that one? Because it makes me wonder if contrasting theory is true, then what would be the overriding element to bring the boys towards Wincest? (Must find theory...)
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