lovesrain44 | Why Did Dean Break After 30 Years and Not Before?

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Why Did Dean Break After 30 Years and Not Before?

This is in reference to the 4.10 ep, Heaven and Hell, where Dean gives up the goods at the end and tells Sam the reasons why he doesn’t want to talk about hell. We find out the awful truth: that in order to stop the pain, Dean got up off the rack and became a torturer himself.

I realized I want to know WTF happened after 30 years that made Dean suddenly change his mind. I mean you don't go through 30 years of torture and then wake up one day and say screw this, do you? (I’m pretty sure Sam feels the same, but he’s being a Good Brother and giving Dean his space. For now, anyway.)

Maybe, after 30 years, maybe he hit his breaking point, maybe he got tired of Alistar coming by EVERY single day and just hit his limit.

When Dean said, at the end of Wishful Thinking, “…the things I did, the things I saw…” I instantly thought/figured/hoped that there was non-con between Dean and Alistar, because I’m whacked that way, and I kind of thought THAT would be the reason Dean broke. Not that he suddenly gave up one day. Or maybe Hell used Sam in some way, something that Dean thought was Sam.

What's most interesting to me is the fact that fanfic never considered that Dean could be broken, that he would make the choice he did as presented in canon. At least not the fanfic I’ve read. (I would be willing to be shown the error of my ways, however.)

I'd love to know what other people think!

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I think he did just break - there has to be a point and this was the point. I've heard others suggest the non-con with Alister because of the way he responds to Dean when he sees him, but I don't think that would break him - I think it could have happened but it would be just another part of the torture, not the reason he gives up.

What's interesting about this is I just started posting a story I started writing years ago called If It's Tuesday, it must be Stockholm.

In it, Sam's been a captive of a serial killer who is one of the special kids himself and in we come to find that Sam reached a point where he became the helper (assistant torturer) in order to save himself. When I wrote it, I wasn't sure anyone would buy a Winchester getting broken so badly that they agree to harm others but it looks like the potential runs in the family!

I read a fic (but can't find the damn thing now, sorry) where Alistar starts taunting Dean with the fact that Sam has forgotten about him, moved on with his life etc and that is what makes Dean finally give in and stop fighting.

I think that Dean's breaking point could have been when he finally realized that he's not getting out of there.

Although, I do think it could also be that Alastair did use Sam in some way or maybe one of his parents, maybe had a look-a-like or an illusion or something, of Sam torturing him or something. And I wouldn't put the Non-con past him either.

Either way, it broke my heart to see Dean in such pain, and not only the physical pain, but the emotional pain of finally giving up, which we have never seen Dean do willingly.

I'm not sure that it was EXACTLY 30 years, part of torturing is losing track of time or screwing with it in some way, so Dean may have no idea of how long it was, just what he either thinks or has been told it was. I don't think the exact 30 years is significant, other than one - it makes the torture seem horrible if it has been going on that long (as opposed to the 4 months 'up top') and two - they needed a number to use and 30 was nice and even and that leaves 10 years of guilt for Dean to wallow in.

That aside, I think he just reached the point where he just couldn't do it anymore, he gave up hope of rescue and he just couldn't bear Alistair in his face one more time. If Alistair came to him every day, and asked the same question, that quite possibly might be worse than the torture: to be free, to not have to face something just that one more time. How many times have you gone into work, faced the same thing day in and day out and one day, you call in sick: you're not physically sick, you are just mentally and emotionally tired and just want a break. Of course in Dean's case, things are much much worse, but same principle. He just finally cracked.

I think they had to have changed up something. I still like the idea of rape being the breaking point.

Do you have non-USA friends on your flist? If you do you might want to consider putting this under a cut tag due to spoilers. Of course it's your journal, so it's whatever you want.

Personally I don't think Dean nessisarily gave in in exactly 30 years. He probably estimated about thirty years. He said time moved differently. I'm guessing he didn't keep exact track. It FELT like fourty years. He gave up 3/4's of the way through his torture. And yeah, I'm not surprised he eventually broke. What I want to know is if he ever said "no, I can't torture this person." and then was put back on the rack for a few more months until he once again asked to get off...

I think it has to do with Sam. When the way Uriel said about how he knows just exactly which pressure to press,(or something in those lines.lol) was way too nasty. Like he knows something. I mean, yes, sure Dean would have to give up pretty much anyone for Sam but still..I don't know how to express, but it's like Uriel was saying "it did before."

I agree with some people above, about how Alister convinced Dean that Sam would never save him and that he would move on, etc..I think it was more on the line how Dean is foerever lost and alone, rather than "I would harm Sam if you don't give in.". Because latter meant Dean didn't have a choice but to give in without his intention, but the prior meant Dean did really breakdown, really give in.

I do think there had to be a non-con between him and Alister though. The way Alister treated Dean when he first saw him was way too sexual.

I don't think the date is important - after all i doubt Dean was able to count days down there. it's just kinda figure of speach - to let us know that he held up as much as he can and then gave up. I don't see any non-con reason in partucular for breaking Dean i think it was more like all the tortures that at some point became unbearable. He just can't take them anymore he was irrational and was ready to do everything to stop - i don't even think he'd understand what he was suppose to do he knew only that saying Yes he'll stop the pain.

is the fact that fanfic never considered that Dean could be broken, that he would make the choice he did as presented in canon
That's why fanfics are fanfics and Kripke has profi writers in his crew. The fact the hell broke Dean doesn't make Dean less hero than he is. But i think some ficwriters were afraid of showing Dean broken... but that's the point of being afraid of hell - hell can break everyone. It's only a matter of time.

My two cents: I don't think it's not important that he breaks or when. I think everyone breaks under torture at some point. And 30 years? That's pretty impressive. But I didn't want to say that. I wanted to say that torture can mean non-con as well. :(

BTW... you're not 'the second coming' and gave me a whip? If you now think I lost it completely... never mind. *headdesk*

Someone wrote a wonderful fic about this, but I forget who... it was basically the concept that Alastair came on the thirty-year anniversary (or what he told Dean was the thirty-year anniversary, anyway) and said that he wasn't gonna torture Dean today, because it was such a big anniversary. And right as he was about to walk away, he asked Dean if he could even remember Sam's face anymore. When Dean realized he couldn't, he completely lost it, and the next day, he agreed to torture others.

That sounded really, really plausible to me. Thirty years is a meaningful span of time as well, because it took nearly thirty years to create the Dean Winchester who went to Hell (he was 29), and it took thirty years to unmake him... to strip away his memories of his loved ones, his memories of himself, his personality and everything, until there was just pain and the absence of pain, making it an easy choice.

As for rape, I think Alastair definitely raped him, but I think it was probably just a regular thing along with the rest of the torture. I think we only got the relatively sanitized "carving, slicing" description because we're not on HBO or FX. :P

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