Why Did Dean Break After 30 Years and Not Before?

[lovesrain44]

This is in reference to the 4.10 ep, Heaven and Hell, where Dean gives up the goods at the end and tells Sam the reasons why he doesn’t want to talk about hell. We find out the awful truth: that in order to stop the pain, Dean got up off the rack and became a torturer himself.

 

I realized I want to know WTF happened after 30 years that made Dean suddenly change his mind. I mean you don't go through 30 years of torture and then wake up one day and say screw this, do you? (I’m pretty sure Sam feels the same, but he’s being a Good Brother and giving Dean his space. For now, anyway.)

 

Maybe, after 30 years, maybe he hit his breaking point, maybe he got tired of Alistar coming by EVERY single day and just hit his limit.

 

When Dean said, at the end of Wishful Thinking, “…the things I did, the things I saw…” I instantly thought/figured/hoped that there was non-con between Dean and Alistar, because I’m whacked that way, and I kind of thought THAT would be the reason Dean broke. Not that he suddenly gave up one day. Or maybe Hell used Sam in some way, something that Dean thought was Sam.

 

What's most interesting to me is the fact that fanfic never considered that Dean could be broken, that he would make the choice he did as presented in canon. At least not the fanfic I’ve read. (I would be willing to be shown the error of my ways, however.)

I'd love to know what other people think!

Comments

[jdsampson.livejournal.com]

I think he did just break - there has to be a point and this was the point. I've heard others suggest the non-con with Alister because of the way he responds to Dean when he sees him, but I don't think that would break him - I think it could have happened but it would be just another part of the torture, not the reason he gives up.

What's interesting about this is I just started posting a story I started writing years ago called If It's Tuesday, it must be Stockholm.

In it, Sam's been a captive of a serial killer who is one of the special kids himself and in we come to find that Sam reached a point where he became the helper (assistant torturer) in order to save himself. When I wrote it, I wasn't sure anyone would buy a Winchester getting broken so badly that they agree to harm others but it looks like the potential runs in the family!

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

I've heard about the Stockholm Syndrome, and yeah, at some point, you bond with your captor and figure he's the only thing keeping you alive, that he's right, that he's your world.

There's lots of links about the Stockholm Syndrome on he web; your story sounds fun! If torturing Sam can be considered fun, which I do.

And I understand why people break, I was just wondering if there was some reason Dean broke at 30 years. Why not 32 years? And what was the straw that broke this beautiful camel's back?

[serena64.livejournal.com]

I read a fic (but can't find the damn thing now, sorry) where Alistar starts taunting Dean with the fact that Sam has forgotten about him, moved on with his life etc and that is what makes Dean finally give in and stop fighting.

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

That sounds about right. I always figured that Alistar would use Sam in some way, some cruel way. If you find that link!

[evermcfearless.livejournal.com]

I think that Dean's breaking point could have been when he finally realized that he's not getting out of there.

Although, I do think it could also be that Alastair did use Sam in some way or maybe one of his parents, maybe had a look-a-like or an illusion or something, of Sam torturing him or something. And I wouldn't put the Non-con past him either.

Either way, it broke my heart to see Dean in such pain, and not only the physical pain, but the emotional pain of finally giving up, which we have never seen Dean do willingly.

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Something had to make that point worse than all the others...

it could be like you point out, kind of like when you wait 15 minutes for someone to show up for a date or appointment, and then you give them five minutes more and THAT's it. Then you walk. At the 30 year mark, Dean said, that's it! I'm done. Stick a fork in me.

Something pushed him over the edge!

Something that, now that I'm thinking about it...well, I'm thinking about the motel fight scene. Forget which ep. Sam says something and Dean starts swinging, taking out the lamp and then Sam. I had the feeling that he was thinking it was all for nothing, if Sam was going to go darkside - somehow related to his time in hell, why did I put up with all that suffering if THIS is the result? Why didn't I break at 10 years and maybe saved myself some grief?

But then, if he'd broken at 10 years, he would have been 30 years a torturer, and that would have been worse. For Dean anyway.

[evermcfearless.livejournal.com]

Wait, so you think Dean knew about Sam using his powers and then he just gave up?

[partaymon5.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that it was EXACTLY 30 years, part of torturing is losing track of time or screwing with it in some way, so Dean may have no idea of how long it was, just what he either thinks or has been told it was. I don't think the exact 30 years is significant, other than one - it makes the torture seem horrible if it has been going on that long (as opposed to the 4 months 'up top') and two - they needed a number to use and 30 was nice and even and that leaves 10 years of guilt for Dean to wallow in.

That aside, I think he just reached the point where he just couldn't do it anymore, he gave up hope of rescue and he just couldn't bear Alistair in his face one more time. If Alistair came to him every day, and asked the same question, that quite possibly might be worse than the torture: to be free, to not have to face something just that one more time. How many times have you gone into work, faced the same thing day in and day out and one day, you call in sick: you're not physically sick, you are just mentally and emotionally tired and just want a break. Of course in Dean's case, things are much much worse, but same principle. He just finally cracked.

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

I figured the 30 years was pretty much a marker point, not an exact one. Rather along the lines of "It rained for 40 years and 40 nights" kind of thing. So the 30 year thing, yeah, 3/4 of the way through, only he didn't know that, did he. HE figured he was going to be down there forever. He didn't KNOW at the 30 year mark (or whenever) that rescue was on the way. I don't even think he figured help was on the way. Unless Sam did something STOOPID to rescue him.

That makes it even more interesting. If he thought hell was forever, and he gave in after the "30" year mark? Oh man. He broke early, if you look at it that way.

I like your idea of the agony of facing the same-o same-o. Some days you just want to run screaming into the streets.

I'd like to see more fallout from him not only cracking (because in his mind the great Dean Winchester never cracks!) but also now having told Sammy.....

[evermcfearless.livejournal.com]

That could be it, but idk...Kripke does like to eff with us. It could be another secret that has yet to be revealed.

Btw, love your icon!

[amalthia]

I think they had to have changed up something. I still like the idea of rape being the breaking point.

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

That's because you're my evil twin!

Yeah, one day, Alistar comes in and asks Dean the question, and then maybe Alistair says..."Well, boy, how bout this for some incentive?"

Heh heh heh.

[aknutzen.livejournal.com]

when i first watched the episode that was actualy the first thing that sprang to my mind, and even my husband and friend agreed with me about that. i could see that breaking dean where nothing else in hell would, seeing as how dean was always the one in control with sex and ya know along those lines.

[lori-leaf.livejournal.com]

Do you have non-USA friends on your flist? If you do you might want to consider putting this under a cut tag due to spoilers. Of course it's your journal, so it's whatever you want.

Personally I don't think Dean nessisarily gave in in exactly 30 years. He probably estimated about thirty years. He said time moved differently. I'm guessing he didn't keep exact track. It FELT like fourty years. He gave up 3/4's of the way through his torture. And yeah, I'm not surprised he eventually broke. What I want to know is if he ever said "no, I can't torture this person." and then was put back on the rack for a few more months until he once again asked to get off...

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

I tried to warn for spoilers on the dean_sam list just in case, and I reckon you're right I do have non USA pals. I'll fix that.

I don't think it was exactly 30 years either, but the thing I thought of this evening is that even though we know that he was rescued about 3/4 of the way through, he didn't know that. He probably thought it was forever.

I guess I'm thinking that if each day was the same, getting sliced and diced and then Alistair came in, what happened on THAT day when he said, okay, I'll do it. Something must have been a little bit different.

But, I REALLY like your idea, of him trying to back out of being the torturer!

[mellow-tears.livejournal.com]

I think it has to do with Sam. When the way Uriel said about how he knows just exactly which pressure to press,(or something in those lines.lol) was way too nasty. Like he knows something. I mean, yes, sure Dean would have to give up pretty much anyone for Sam but still..I don't know how to express, but it's like Uriel was saying "it did before."

I agree with some people above, about how Alister convinced Dean that Sam would never save him and that he would move on, etc..I think it was more on the line how Dean is foerever lost and alone, rather than "I would harm Sam if you don't give in.". Because latter meant Dean didn't have a choice but to give in without his intention, but the prior meant Dean did really breakdown, really give in.

I do think there had to be a non-con between him and Alister though. The way Alister treated Dean when he first saw him was way too sexual.

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Or that Uriel knows because the demons in hell have been bragging and word got around. I agree with you, Uriel certainly didn't sound like he didn't know what he was talking about there, even if it was second hand knowledge.


I like what you said about Dean giving in - the fact that the choice was taken from him, that he believed there would be no rescue. That's a no brainer. If he sacrifices himself to save Sam, that's a choice, and he could hold onto that choice for however long. Only he never had one, it sounds like.

One poster suggested that there was non con all the time, down there in hell. That it wasn't the straw that broke the camels back. I like that idea....and you're right. The air between them was sexually charged!

[leelust.livejournal.com]

I don't think the date is important - after all i doubt Dean was able to count days down there. it's just kinda figure of speach - to let us know that he held up as much as he can and then gave up. I don't see any non-con reason in partucular for breaking Dean i think it was more like all the tortures that at some point became unbearable. He just can't take them anymore he was irrational and was ready to do everything to stop - i don't even think he'd understand what he was suppose to do he knew only that saying Yes he'll stop the pain.

is the fact that fanfic never considered that Dean could be broken, that he would make the choice he did as presented in canon
That's why fanfics are fanfics and Kripke has profi writers in his crew. The fact the hell broke Dean doesn't make Dean less hero than he is. But i think some ficwriters were afraid of showing Dean broken... but that's the point of being afraid of hell - hell can break everyone. It's only a matter of time.

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Yes, people will break at any time, I was just wondering why at that certain point, why THAT day. My brain works that way, but there could also be no reason, just one day Dean wakes up on the rack and he's done. He's had it.

As for non con, someone (mellow tears) was talking about the sexuality in that little scene. I buy non con as a regular part of the torture, personally.

I don't think I've read any fics where Dean is broken...but are writers afraid of showing Dean broken, or is it just that they never considered that he COULD break? Me, I think it's the latter, because he seems such a strong character. But, yeah, it wouldn't make him any less the hero if he broke. If they did it right.

[silkmoth101.livejournal.com]

My two cents: I don't think it's not important that he breaks or when. I think everyone breaks under torture at some point. And 30 years? That's pretty impressive. But I didn't want to say that. I wanted to say that torture can mean non-con as well. :(

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

Oh, I see what you're saying. There could have been non con all along! Nice. I like it.

Yeah, Dean broke. Anyone could have. I wouldn't have lasted that long, I don't think. I wonder what he kept inside of his head to keep him going...oh, I know. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam....

[silkmoth101.livejournal.com]

BTW... you're not 'the second coming' and gave me a whip? If you now think I lost it completely... never mind. *headdesk*

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

*pets*

There, there....

I love the image...Dean all sassy and pretending it doesn't matter, standing up and demanding the whip and the knife and just making it work, even if his heart is breaking.

[mara47.livejournal.com]

Someone wrote a wonderful fic about this, but I forget who... it was basically the concept that Alastair came on the thirty-year anniversary (or what he told Dean was the thirty-year anniversary, anyway) and said that he wasn't gonna torture Dean today, because it was such a big anniversary. And right as he was about to walk away, he asked Dean if he could even remember Sam's face anymore. When Dean realized he couldn't, he completely lost it, and the next day, he agreed to torture others.

That sounded really, really plausible to me. Thirty years is a meaningful span of time as well, because it took nearly thirty years to create the Dean Winchester who went to Hell (he was 29), and it took thirty years to unmake him... to strip away his memories of his loved ones, his memories of himself, his personality and everything, until there was just pain and the absence of pain, making it an easy choice.

As for rape, I think Alastair definitely raped him, but I think it was probably just a regular thing along with the rest of the torture. I think we only got the relatively sanitized "carving, slicing" description because we're not on HBO or FX. :P

[lovesrain44.livejournal.com]

I would love to read this story if you remember the link....

Some people think the 30 year mark is abitrary and yeah the when of it doesn't matter. If he broke he broke. But I think that 30 years means something. Didn't Jesus start his ministry when he was 30? And then three years later was on the cross at Golgotha? Or maybe it's just one of those times when Show makes something up that has a connection in reality!