I voted for S2, after John died, but I have a few pet theories on how it all could have gone down:
1) Pre-series adolescent sex that didn't resume (at least not immediately) after they hit the road in S1, and those actions kind of hang over them like a black cloud and color their relationship throughout the show. Eventually though, I think in this scenario they'd reach a breaking point and start fucking again.
2) After "Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things", where they're on the side of that mountain and Dean admits that he knows that John must have sold his soul for him, and he says to Sam, "What could you possibly say to make that all right?". Obviously, Sam can't SAY anything, but that line begs the question too much for me to think that nothing happened after it!
3) Sex sometimes happens after periods of high stress and too many close-calls, but they never talk about it. I think of this as the denial scenario.
4) Sam is totally, consciously in unrequited love with Dean, and Dean might be in love with him too subconsciously, but it's buried under too many layers of needing to protect Sam, even from himself. There's no sex happening in this scenario, but I think it might secretly be my favorite because it's so tragic.
1) Pre-series adolescent sex that didn't resume (at least not immediately) after they hit the road in S1, and those actions kind of hang over them like a black cloud and color their relationship throughout the show. Eventually though, I think in this scenario they'd reach a breaking point and start fucking again.
This is my personal canon and seems to be, IMO the most realistic of the ones where they actually end up together, though your n4 is probably the most realistic overall. I like to think that it took a while to heal old wounds and become as comfortable with each other as they were before. I'm sure they missed each other like nobody's business, but both had a serious relationship in between and it's just hard to go back to this. Though I think later it becomes apparent to them that it was inevitable. *feels shippy*
I totally stand behind your number 4 too. I rarely think that the canon Dean could stop being himself for long enough to realise what's between him and Sam. And should he ever, I think his guilt and emotions would destroy him and maybe he'd end up running away. Yes, tragic, angsty brothers do something for me.
Thanks, I too think that that one makes the most sense for 'ship purposes, so I listed it first. ^_^ There's a lot of canonical tension between them even now left over from their childhoods, so it's easy interpret at least part of that tension as sexual. Resuming a sexual relationship in this scenario is both like making up for the years in between when they weren't together and didn't have it and like making up for how flawed the adolescent relationship must have been, what with all the stress of having to basically raise themselves and with their caregiver-child roles being pretty strictly defined in a way that they aren't now. Their relationship now is more equal, so I can only imagine that their new sexual relationship would be more balanced as well. Can you tell that I've given this some thought?
I think long and hard about Wincest too. (forgive the pun) But I haven't come up with a response to this because I agree with everything you've said except that, while their relationship is definitely *more* equal now, I don't think Dean will ever lose his Jesus complex and stop being Sam's protector. Even when he was destined to go to hell and scared shitless, he was always the one protecting not being protected. IDK, at least that's how I saw it.
Oh, I definitely don't think that their relationship will ever be completely "equal", because regardless of any upbringing, I don't think siblings CAN view each other as true equals. My point is that they seem to have moved away from the extremely polarized power roles that they had at the beginning of the show.
It's interesting, Sam has been the one who has wanted to change their relationship, and he shows this at least as far back as... Salvation? I'm thinking of the scene where Dean says that their family (and by extrapolation, their relationship) could be like it was, and Sam says that he doesn't want it to be. Since then, Sam has tried to get Dean to view him as an equal, but Dean, with his years and years of being a martyr for his family, and specifically for Sam, has been consistently reluctant to change, probably because he's so afraid of what might happen to Sam if he weren't constantly on guard (Something Wicked anyone?). Even with Dean's reluctance though, he still treats Sam more like an equal now than he did at the beginning, especially in the communication department, and I think the impetus for that change was John's death and his "parting words" to Dean. That was too much for anyone to bear alone, so in a way, Dean was forced into trusting Sam more rather than always just shielding him. Sam's constant assertions in S3 that the two of them are "in this together" (as equals), and Dean's increased communication with him both point to more balance in their relationship, even if it will always be an imperfect level of equality.
TL;DR, but I think as Sam and Dean's relationship moves more towards equality, as it moves toward a relationship that allows Dean to drop his guard sometimes and allows Sam to have direct control over his life sometimes, the potential for a sexual relationship between them increases.
You've given me food for thought...about the whole equality thing. Dean thinks of himself as being in charge, because that was the job that was assigned to him and for YeaRs it's been this way. When Sam started growing (and growing and growing) I'm sure Dean still had blinders on and had a hard time letting Sam have an equal say in where they went and what they did. I think this was tempered by Sam's abiltiy to find them new jobs and to be able to think things through. Not sure that this would transfer over into any sexual relationship, although I do like the idea of Dean NEEDING to let his guard down, to let someone else be in charge, and the only person he's going to let do this is...Sam.
Have you read leondisleon's Alter Verse stories? There's only two, but it does this, it lets Sam take CHARGE and then some.
I wish there was a way I could give you a gold star or a cookie, because I love your response! I love the logic of it, and it makes sense to me. I have said that I've been shocked by the whole pre-series winning all the votes, but the way you have described it, that the fooling around has hung over them for quite some time and then turned into something more serious is the scenario I like best. Plus I love the idea of Sam comforting Dean without words, even if words are what Sam likes best, he knows that Dean does not and so...yeah. I like the unrequited idea too, but only in limited doses....I think because unrequited fanfic turns into something resembling gay porn more than fanfic. As in "Oh, what a lovely ass my brother has," and I can't quite stand that...
"..I think because unrequited fanfic turns into something resembling gay porn more than fanfic. As in "Oh, what a lovely ass my brother has," and I can't quite stand that..."
Really? I get a totally opposite vibe from the unrequited stuff- more unrelenting angst than gay porn. Maybe it's how it's handled? and we've been reading different things? Just curious.
it's not that I mind unrequited love fic, I especially like the idea that Sam has a crush on his brother for ages before anything actually happens.
Let's see if I can explain. It might be how it's handled. Unrequited love is full of angst and emo and hero worship (from Sam's pov) or adoration (from Dean's pov)and I like that. What I don't like is what seems to happen in those stories that turn into gay porn is that the way the brothers look at each other unrequitedly takes a markedly gay pornish turn. Nothing wrong with gay porn, right, but to me it seems unrealistic (or undesirable) for them to start looking at each other with gay eyes. Where they start, in their heads, thinking about each other in gay porn terms. Like, "what a big cock Dean had! Sam wanted that cock!" I'd rather see something more subtle than that, more mushy and romantic. If I want gay porn I can read that, but in SPN I'd much rather read something where if Sam is looking at Dean, he thinks something like "...the golden lines of Dean's body, beautiful in the cheap bulb..."
Ah, yes. That totally makes sense. Yeah, that's just plain old bad fic. LOL
Thankfully, I haven't had the misfortune of running into that enough with unrequited fic to associate the two. Not that I read a lot of unrequited fic, because I just can't take it.
You know what I have come to associate it with tho? Two things- domestic schmoop fic, (come on, it could be *good* if done right!) and mpreg. Not that I read mpreg. *looks shifty*
I can't read mpreg either, because it seems silly to me...if someone wants the boys to have a child, they can find one by the roadside. I'm actually fond of the idea of them having a kid that way, but not the mpreg way. Silly. Just silly.
I can't take unrequited either, though sometimes I do get sucked in. Candlebeck wrote one where Sam keeps showing up in Dean's life and then LEAVING. It's just too sad. (You know candlebeck's stuff right?)
PS I guess there's two kinds of unrequited that we're talking about here...one where Sam (or Dean) loves "unrequited"for ages and ages and then finally, WHEW, they get together. Then there's the unrequited where the is wanting, perhaps sex, but they don't end up together. Ug. Who needs that?
Aww, thank you, I'm glad that my obsessive thought patterns are good for something! I have never seen my particular pre-Stanford idea in fic, but I think it probably makes the most logical sense for setting up a sexual relationship during the series.
I know what you mean with unrequited-love fics; they used to be very common in my previous fandoms, and I'm glad that they're rare in SPN because they all read just like the example you gave! Scenario 4 is good (interesting? soul-wrenchingly painful?) to keep in mind while actually watching episodes, but not so good to put in fic.
I love these theories! *wishes we could do experiments to test them*
#1- I can totally get on board. Makes perfect sense, and I love that you include inevitable fucking. Never a bad thing.
#2- Ditto. *LOVE* that scene.
#3 makes me sad for them, even tho it's porny.
#4- *whimpers* Yes, very plausible but noooo! don't do that to our boys!! I'd almost rather they weren't in love than to add this too to all their burdens. :(
Thanks! I've made my roommate and sister listen to them countless times, so they're pretty well thought out by now!
After I saw CSPTDT the first time, I immediately had to rewatch it, just to make sure that that scene really did point invariably to sex (which it totally does.) Any point after this in the series, Wincest becomes plausible to me.
I think that eventually they'd have to deal with the desperation-in-the-dark fucks, with Sam probably bringing up the subject and Dean being all awkward. Regardless of how they get to the sex, I definitely think it would be a "fuck first, ask questions later" deal.
4 is amazingly tragic, and I agree that it's better to assume no romantic love between them than a love that will never go anywhere. At the same time, part of me sees Dean as being very good at blocking things out and compartmentalizing his mind, and very reluctant to do anything that he sees as damaging to Sam. Since Sam is a character who is pretty much defined by both his self-imposed guilt and by the things that he can't or couldn't do, I can also see him trying to just push it aside as yet another failure in his life. Wow, now I'm going to sit in the corner and cry because I've depressed myself!
The scene in CSPWDT? On the mountain? I don't see it as happening then, I see it as already having happened/or about to happen in the scene where Sam is drunk and making grabby hands at Dean. This is proof in my mind that Sam has already brought up the subject, and wants Dean, and Dean knows this, and when Sam gets all relaxed, Dean slaps his hands away without much comment. He knows what Sam wants here and isn't going to give in. Yet. And certainly not to a drunk Sam.
(My favorite theory of yours is the 1st one, then the 3rd one.)
In Playthings? Yeah, if you watch that episode as a new viewer (which I did when I first started watching, I had only seen one ep before that, Hunted), the subtext practically slaps you upside the head. From a literary criticism point of view, all of Sam's destiny and demon blood angst could be read as him being in love with Dean and being ashamed of it (especially when he says things like, "There's this thing inside of me that I can't control" or "This blood, it's not in you like it's in me").
On the scene in CSPWDT, my feeling is that post-Stanford Wincest isn't very feasible BEFORE that scene, but begins to be more and more possible in the episodes that follow. I suppose what I mean is that I can't really suspend my disbelief very well to read codas or missing scenes that involve sex that would have taken place in episodes before CSPWDT, but it's just a matter of time (and personal preference) as to when the sex starts after that point. I think John as a controlling, prohibitive force in their lives has to be dealt with before any fucking.
Okay...are these two different eps? Confused now...thought I was thinking oof them as the same one!
Playthings - the one with the grandma in the attic, and Dean and Sam are considered to be antiquers...and the grabby hands, yes, subtext and upside the head wincest.
Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things (I had to look it up) the zombie ep where there is the mountain scene at the end, and the mantear of pain.
My bad for the confusion. : D
I agree totally and reckon than you voted with me on this one, it's more feasible for them to get together after John died. Not just because of him being there and being all bossy, but he's a very strong element in their lives even when he's not around. I've thought this for ages. Although I like stories where John's in the next room (the whole chance of discovery thing is rather fun) I don't buy it because I don't think that they'd risk it or even consider it because the John we've seen would kill them both, or beat the crap out of them, or something - he'd be SO angry, and it would destroy him to find out. So, no. Dean would never risk doing that to John.
My current favorite theory is that when they were kids, out of lonliness and to give solice to each other, they might have fooled around, then it stopped as they got older, (was that black cloud you were talking about in your other post), Sam went away (which I personally think had nothing to do with the sex), then Sam came back, and the memory of fooling around got sublimated for hunting for John. THEN John died and all they had was each other and thusly the wincest begins. (Barring any hero worship crush Sam might have had on Dean for ages...but no action was taking with purpose aforethought until John died.
No problem for the confusion, it's only through strict training that I can keep all the titles straight myself!
I really agree with your thoughts about John. I'm in a literary theory class right now and we've talked about the Freudian "internal rule of the father", where the rules imposed by a father figure (an actual father, a political leader, an influential writer, etc.) become internalized subconsciously, making him larger than life and making him influential even when he isn't physically there. I think this really applies in SPN because the boys have always and will always be influenced by John and the way that he taught them to live.
That theory has a lot in common with actual accounts of sibling incest, where the siblings are drawn together because they're socially isolated and are neglected by their parents. I also agree that once they were all alone again and both began actively disagreeing with things that John had told them, Wincest can happen.
I'm pretty good with titles most of the time, but get confused with the initials, which throws me off pretty fiercly.
I've heard about the theory you mention, but it's been a while, so thank you for reminding me of it - porn is fun, pwp is fun, but no way on this earth would Dean risk it. Sam might...he might try to coerce Dean, but Dean would hold strong. Esp if John is in the next room, the whole Freudian theory was written to describe DEAN! (Less so with Sam, though John does loom large in Sam's brain, but in a different way. Remember what he drunkenly said to Dean? "Dad told you to do it, you HAVE to!" Because even if John isn't as influential to Sam, Sam knows the power Dad holds over Dean.)
I've also heard another contrasting theory, that siblings raised together, even if they're not related, almost can't commit incest. Have you heard of that one? Because it makes me wonder if contrasting theory is true, then what would be the overriding element to bring the boys towards Wincest? (Must find theory...)
I should really be writing a paper for class right now, but a quick reply to your last point: I think that's called the Westermark effect (sp?), and it applies to any children raised together (like kids in orphanages, etc.) but sibling incest DOES happen, especially as sex play between children. This isn't something that I've looked into much, but I know that one of my fannish friends has, because she's a big psychology nerd like that. XD I actually think that she's working on a post for angstybromance based on some of her research, so keep an eye out for it.
Excellent, thank you! Yeah, the Westmark effect, which would normally be in effect, was overthrown by the intensity of the boys circumstance. I'll look forward to that post, and will probably link to it so everyone can have a gander. : D
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1) Pre-series adolescent sex that didn't resume (at least not immediately) after they hit the road in S1, and those actions kind of hang over them like a black cloud and color their relationship throughout the show. Eventually though, I think in this scenario they'd reach a breaking point and start fucking again.
2) After "Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things", where they're on the side of that mountain and Dean admits that he knows that John must have sold his soul for him, and he says to Sam, "What could you possibly say to make that all right?". Obviously, Sam can't SAY anything, but that line begs the question too much for me to think that nothing happened after it!
3) Sex sometimes happens after periods of high stress and too many close-calls, but they never talk about it. I think of this as the denial scenario.
4) Sam is totally, consciously in unrequited love with Dean, and Dean might be in love with him too subconsciously, but it's buried under too many layers of needing to protect Sam, even from himself. There's no sex happening in this scenario, but I think it might secretly be my favorite because it's so tragic.
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This is my personal canon and seems to be, IMO the most realistic of the ones where they actually end up together, though your n4 is probably the most realistic overall. I like to think that it took a while to heal old wounds and become as comfortable with each other as they were before. I'm sure they missed each other like nobody's business, but both had a serious relationship in between and it's just hard to go back to this. Though I think later it becomes apparent to them that it was inevitable. *feels shippy*
I totally stand behind your number 4 too. I rarely think that the canon Dean could stop being himself for long enough to realise what's between him and Sam. And should he ever, I think his guilt and emotions would destroy him and maybe he'd end up running away. Yes, tragic, angsty brothers do something for me.
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It's interesting, Sam has been the one who has wanted to change their relationship, and he shows this at least as far back as... Salvation? I'm thinking of the scene where Dean says that their family (and by extrapolation, their relationship) could be like it was, and Sam says that he doesn't want it to be. Since then, Sam has tried to get Dean to view him as an equal, but Dean, with his years and years of being a martyr for his family, and specifically for Sam, has been consistently reluctant to change, probably because he's so afraid of what might happen to Sam if he weren't constantly on guard (Something Wicked anyone?). Even with Dean's reluctance though, he still treats Sam more like an equal now than he did at the beginning, especially in the communication department, and I think the impetus for that change was John's death and his "parting words" to Dean. That was too much for anyone to bear alone, so in a way, Dean was forced into trusting Sam more rather than always just shielding him. Sam's constant assertions in S3 that the two of them are "in this together" (as equals), and Dean's increased communication with him both point to more balance in their relationship, even if it will always be an imperfect level of equality.
TL;DR, but I think as Sam and Dean's relationship moves more towards equality, as it moves toward a relationship that allows Dean to drop his guard sometimes and allows Sam to have direct control over his life sometimes, the potential for a sexual relationship between them increases.
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Have you read leondisleon's Alter Verse stories? There's only two, but it does this, it lets Sam take CHARGE and then some.
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Really? I get a totally opposite vibe from the unrequited stuff- more unrelenting angst than gay porn. Maybe it's how it's handled? and we've been reading different things? Just curious.
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Let's see if I can explain. It might be how it's handled. Unrequited love is full of angst and emo and hero worship (from Sam's pov) or adoration (from Dean's pov)and I like that. What I don't like is what seems to happen in those stories that turn into gay porn is that the way the brothers look at each other unrequitedly takes a markedly gay pornish turn. Nothing wrong with gay porn, right, but to me it seems unrealistic (or undesirable) for them to start looking at each other with gay eyes. Where they start, in their heads, thinking about each other in gay porn terms. Like, "what a big cock Dean had! Sam wanted that cock!" I'd rather see something more subtle than that, more mushy and romantic. If I want gay porn I can read that, but in SPN I'd much rather read something where if Sam is looking at Dean, he thinks something like "...the golden lines of Dean's body, beautiful in the cheap bulb..."
Hope that makes more sense!
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Thankfully, I haven't had the misfortune of running into that enough with unrequited fic to associate the two. Not that I read a lot of unrequited fic, because I just can't take it.
You know what I have come to associate it with tho? Two things- domestic schmoop fic, (come on, it could be *good* if done right!) and mpreg. Not that I read mpreg. *looks shifty*
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I can't take unrequited either, though sometimes I do get sucked in. Candlebeck wrote one where Sam keeps showing up in Dean's life and then LEAVING. It's just too sad. (You know candlebeck's stuff right?)
PS I guess there's two kinds of unrequited that we're talking about here...one where Sam (or Dean) loves "unrequited"for ages and ages and then finally, WHEW, they get together. Then there's the unrequited where the is wanting, perhaps sex, but they don't end up together. Ug. Who needs that?
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I know what you mean with unrequited-love fics; they used to be very common in my previous fandoms, and I'm glad that they're rare in SPN because they all read just like the example you gave! Scenario 4 is good (interesting? soul-wrenchingly painful?) to keep in mind while actually watching episodes, but not so good to put in fic.
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#1- I can totally get on board. Makes perfect sense, and I love that you include inevitable fucking. Never a bad thing.
#2- Ditto. *LOVE* that scene.
#3 makes me sad for them, even tho it's porny.
#4- *whimpers* Yes, very plausible but noooo! don't do that to our boys!! I'd almost rather they weren't in love than to add this too to all their burdens. :(
(I love tragedy, but not the unending kind.)
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After I saw CSPTDT the first time, I immediately had to rewatch it, just to make sure that that scene really did point invariably to sex (which it totally does.) Any point after this in the series, Wincest becomes plausible to me.
I think that eventually they'd have to deal with the desperation-in-the-dark fucks, with Sam probably bringing up the subject and Dean being all awkward. Regardless of how they get to the sex, I definitely think it would be a "fuck first, ask questions later" deal.
4 is amazingly tragic, and I agree that it's better to assume no romantic love between them than a love that will never go anywhere. At the same time, part of me sees Dean as being very good at blocking things out and compartmentalizing his mind, and very reluctant to do anything that he sees as damaging to Sam. Since Sam is a character who is pretty much defined by both his self-imposed guilt and by the things that he can't or couldn't do, I can also see him trying to just push it aside as yet another failure in his life. Wow, now I'm going to sit in the corner and cry because I've depressed myself!
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No good can come from this. But somebody should write it anyway.
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(My favorite theory of yours is the 1st one, then the 3rd one.)
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On the scene in CSPWDT, my feeling is that post-Stanford Wincest isn't very feasible BEFORE that scene, but begins to be more and more possible in the episodes that follow. I suppose what I mean is that I can't really suspend my disbelief very well to read codas or missing scenes that involve sex that would have taken place in episodes before CSPWDT, but it's just a matter of time (and personal preference) as to when the sex starts after that point. I think John as a controlling, prohibitive force in their lives has to be dealt with before any fucking.
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Playthings - the one with the grandma in the attic, and Dean and Sam are considered to be antiquers...and the grabby hands, yes, subtext and upside the head wincest.
Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things (I had to look it up) the zombie ep where there is the mountain scene at the end, and the mantear of pain.
My bad for the confusion. : D
I agree totally and reckon than you voted with me on this one, it's more feasible for them to get together after John died. Not just because of him being there and being all bossy, but he's a very strong element in their lives even when he's not around. I've thought this for ages. Although I like stories where John's in the next room (the whole chance of discovery thing is rather fun) I don't buy it because I don't think that they'd risk it or even consider it because the John we've seen would kill them both, or beat the crap out of them, or something - he'd be SO angry, and it would destroy him to find out. So, no. Dean would never risk doing that to John.
My current favorite theory is that when they were kids, out of lonliness and to give solice to each other, they might have fooled around, then it stopped as they got older, (was that black cloud you were talking about in your other post), Sam went away (which I personally think had nothing to do with the sex), then Sam came back, and the memory of fooling around got sublimated for hunting for John. THEN John died and all they had was each other and thusly the wincest begins. (Barring any hero worship crush Sam might have had on Dean for ages...but no action was taking with purpose aforethought until John died.
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I really agree with your thoughts about John. I'm in a literary theory class right now and we've talked about the Freudian "internal rule of the father", where the rules imposed by a father figure (an actual father, a political leader, an influential writer, etc.) become internalized subconsciously, making him larger than life and making him influential even when he isn't physically there. I think this really applies in SPN because the boys have always and will always be influenced by John and the way that he taught them to live.
That theory has a lot in common with actual accounts of sibling incest, where the siblings are drawn together because they're socially isolated and are neglected by their parents. I also agree that once they were all alone again and both began actively disagreeing with things that John had told them, Wincest can happen.
Our discussion has been made of win. ^_^ Friend?
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I'm pretty good with titles most of the time, but get confused with the initials, which throws me off pretty fiercly.
I've heard about the theory you mention, but it's been a while, so thank you for reminding me of it - porn is fun, pwp is fun, but no way on this earth would Dean risk it. Sam might...he might try to coerce Dean, but Dean would hold strong. Esp if John is in the next room, the whole Freudian theory was written to describe DEAN! (Less so with Sam, though John does loom large in Sam's brain, but in a different way. Remember what he drunkenly said to Dean? "Dad told you to do it, you HAVE to!" Because even if John isn't as influential to Sam, Sam knows the power Dad holds over Dean.)
I've also heard another contrasting theory, that siblings raised together, even if they're not related, almost can't commit incest. Have you heard of that one? Because it makes me wonder if contrasting theory is true, then what would be the overriding element to bring the boys towards Wincest? (Must find theory...)
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But they can't be true at the same time, #4 cancels #3 out. I love how articulate you made it.
x helen